The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Mathmatical illustration, implausibility of Degrees in Hell

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I was writing on the implausibility of there being degrees of punishment in Hell. Hell being infinite precludes this as has been noted by others. It doesn’t matter if one person suffers 300 degree flames and another suffers 500 degree flames, both are punished infinitely!

To illustrate this mathmatically ("[size=200]∞[/size]" represents “infinity”)
(300 x [size=200]∞ [/size]= 500 x [size=200]∞[/size] = [size=200]∞[/size])

Mathmatically/logically speaking it is impossible for there to be degrees of punishment in Hell. Thus the Jew who died in the holicost not knowing Jesus, suffers just as much as Hitler who put him in the ovens - “IF” the traditional doctrine of ECT and salvation is true.

#2

Huh…well that makes a great deal of sense.

Hell is either finite, or; if indeed it is infinite then the philosophical and theological ramifications of what would be required of God to have made Hell infninite would be a whole slew of worms in a rather large can.

#3

Not really. An eternal hangnail would be more bearable than an eternal migraine.

#4

Sherman that reminds me of:


:slight_smile:

#5

Depends if the nail you were hanging from is rusty.

Only joking. I agree with you roofus.

But a paper cut? Now that’s a different thing. Any woman who complains about childbirth has never suffered a paper cut.
Or a knock on your funny bone? That hurts so much you laugh! Maybe there’ll be laughter in hell?

#6

Concerning the hangnail, I don’t believe anyone considers any of the torments of Hell to be so trivial, unless of course one is thinking of Greek mythology where the Elysium fields were almost heavenly, and the Asphodel medows were only ghostly; it was only Tartarus that was really torturous. The concept of Hell presupposes torment and even torture.

On the other hand, I’m reminded of the so-called “Chinese” water torture and how something so insignificant as a drop of water, under the right conditions (immobalization, randomness, temperature, etc.) can be maddening. Even in Greek mythology, Sisyphus was tortured by having to push a boulder up a hill over and over again only to have it role down again and again - maddening. I mean, even a hangnail, if it was constantly and irregularly tormented could drive one mad, especially if there was no hope of it ending, and if that was the only thing happening in one’s existance. Part of what makes a hangnail barrable is the ability to be distracted with other pursuits that bring one happiness and joy. Our lives having some joy, some happiness, makes the evil bearable. And Hope of relief and things getting better is a tremendous empowerment and relief itself.

#7

My vision of hell before I started hoping in UR was one in which I had a sensation of being buried alive, completely and totally alone and in the dark. I don’t see how there could be degrees of such “aloneness.” IF hell in the traditional sense is separation from God how could there be degrees of separation?

#8

I think that the Lord Himself spoke of degrees of punishment in hell when He spoke of those that receive x number of lashes, others with more.

#9

But you don’t believe in literal lashes do you?

#10

If there are numbered lashes, more and less, then they are not infinite and thus do not equate ECT/Hell. Thus Jesus affirming that some punishments are worse than others is evidence that ECT is not what Jesus taught. The concept of ECT precludes the concept of varying degrees of punishment because of it being Endless, Infinite.

#11

IWe don’t see eye to eye on this one.
That is only if you take it literally. More or less lashes may refer simply to the degree of pain, not a literal lash- do you believe that Jesus will stand before us and lash us?

#12

God as a Father does chastise his children out of love.

He might not literally whip us, but there is a literal essence to ‘lashes’ in terms of punishment for a remedial end.

Christ’s lashes did not last forever, and he bore our iniquities and sicknesses; “by his stripes we are healed”. I think that there is a literal meaning behind the artistic rendering now that our friend has pointed it out. The lashes might not be a literal whip but it would describe a literal use of punitive justice for remedial purpose in a system of degrees. The punishment will fit the crime, but the punishment isn’t going to be endless, as that wouldn’t fit the crime.

#13

I think we get our mistaken notion of degrees partly from the passage that talks about “it will be more tolerable for X in the day of judgment than you”. But this speaks of the judgment itself, not the punishment per se.

#14

My point is simply to affirm that the concept of degrees of endless/infinite punishment is not logical and to mathmatically illustrate that. I’m not intending to prove, disprove, or affirm any specifics about aionian punishment/chastizement.

Concerning aionian chastizement, I believe that the Lord shall dry every tear. How many tears we cry will be determined by how we live our lives. When we face the unshaded truth concerning how we’ve lived, well, the truth will burn the hell out of us. It could be that the truth can be more punishing than anything else. Punishment necessary to bring about reconciliation, well, it could be pretty bad. I’ve tasted aionian judgment and cried for weeks. The Lord comforted me, but it was terrible none the less. Seeing the truth about one’s self can be pretty bad. And though there was only acceptance and love in His voice, no condemnation but terrible conviction, the truth destroyed me and set me free.

#15

If some people must spend eternity in hell (which I don’t believe), degrees of punishment still makes sense in spite of the mathematics of infinity. When dealing with infinite quantities or with infinitesimals, and trying to apply them to reality, ludicrous situations can be “proved”. For example, a rabbit can never catch up to a moving turtle. For when the rabbit has arrived at the turtle’s present position A, the turtle will have advanced to position B. When the rabbit has arrived at B, the turtle will have advanced to C, and so on ad infinitum. However, in spite of this mathematical logic, we know that a rabbit CAN in fact catch up to a turtle!

In the case of eternal hell, let’s look at possible extremes. John has mocked and ridiculed the things of God since he was 15. He has blasphemed God in every way, and challenged God to kill him, and then when he wasn’t killed declared God powerless. Let’s say that he spends eternity in hell hanging from a chain with hot flames tormenting him for eternity. On the other hand, Tuklua, born in a tribe of “primitives” has never heard of Jesus, let alone heard the gospel. So he is assigned to spend eternity in hell, but with no discomforts whatever — just isolation from heaven. Will it not be more tolerable for Tuklua than for John?