Matthew 24:1-35

[Psalmist]

But if the “coming of the Son of Man” took place in 70 A.D., or thereabouts, what historical evidence (and I am referring to early-church documentation) do we have for its assertion? In other words, what precisely was it that happened when (and if) Christ appeared at that time? Are there any historical records available to back up such a claim?

Aaron, I am taking the following into account, but I still want to find manuscripts from that era to uphold the perspective that Christ did come in some manner. I have a have hard time accepting that the the temple’s and Jerusalem’s destruction sufficiently reveal the revelation of the Son of Man in a manner indisputable by His followers in that era. Shouldn’t there be some sort of identifiable testimony corroborating His sudden revelation?

As far as historical evidence of this coming, I think the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple is probably the best historical evidence, for it is the fulfillment of this event that I believe signified that the “coming” prophesied by Christ had taken place. I also think the supernatural events described by Josephus as taking place at this time are good collaborative evidence for the preterist position

[AUniversalist]

Sorry Aaron, this got lost in the entirety of other posts. I intended to post earlier.

Or, coming from the clouds doesn’t mean what many think it means.

Well you’ve piqued my curiosity. As a non-preterist, what do you think Christ’s “coming with the clouds” means, and how/when do you see it as being fulfilled?

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood by God].

Simply, coming in the clouds does not refer to a physical event in some point in time, but the moment we grasp and understand God. He is coming from the clouds means that for now, some don’t see Him but there is a time in their life (or afterward) where the clouds shall clear and we shall see Him.

1 John 4:2-12
By this you may know (perceive and recognize) the Spirit of God: every spirit which acknowledges and confesses [the fact] that Jesus Christ (the Messiah) [actually] has become man and has come in the flesh is of God [has God for its source]; And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh [but would [a]annul, destroy, sever, disunite Him] is not of God [does not proceed from Him]. This [nonconfession] is the [spirit] of the antichrist, [of] which you heard that it was coming, and now it is already in the world.

Little children, you are of God [you belong to Him] and have [already] defeated and overcome them [the agents of the antichrist], because He Who lives in you is greater (mightier) than he who is in the world. They proceed from the world and are of the world; therefore it is out of the world [its whole economy morally considered] that they speak, and the world listens (pays attention) to them.

We are [children] of God. Whoever is learning to know God [progressively to perceive, recognize, and understand God by observation and experience, and to [get an ever-clearer knowledge of Him] listens to us; and he who is not of God does not listen or pay attention to us. By this we know (recognize) the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error.

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is (springs) from God; and he who loves [his fellowmen] is begotten (born) of God and is coming [progressively] to know and understand God [to perceive and recognize and get a better and clearer knowledge of Him]. He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest (displayed) where we are concerned: in that God sent His Son, the only begotten or [f]unique [Son], into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins.

Beloved, if God loved us so [very much], we also ought to love one another. No man has at any time [yet] seen God. But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us!

1 John 3:1-3
SEE WHAT [an incredible] quality of love the Father has given (shown, bestowed on) us, that we should [be permitted to] be named and called and counted the children of God! And so we are! The reason that the world does not know (recognize, acknowledge) us is that it does not know (recognize, acknowledge) Him.

Beloved, we are [even here and] now God’s children; it is not yet disclosed (made clear) what we shall be [hereafter], but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall as God’s children] resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him [c]just as He [really] is. And everyone who has this hope [resting] on Him cleanses (purifies) himself just as He is pure (chaste, undefiled, guiltless).

[Catherine]

I’ve just spend the last six months fully immersed in the ‘premillenial, dispensationalist, pre- trib rapture (and post trib) mind set of the ‘end time’ proponents- interesting to say the least! I’m struggling to see how ALL Jesus’ words were fulfilled leading up to 70 AD. I do not dispute that Jesus is talking about the coming destruction within the life time of some of those alive as He spoke. I struggle with 1) the tribulation being unsurpassed in all history. I can accept it was the worst tribulation up til then, but surely the sufferings that the Jews experienced in world war II was much worse 2) The signs in the sun, moon and stars. You maintain Aaron, that these are not proper astronomical signs but rather judgmental language. Peter in Acts 2:14-21 quotes from Joel. Peter says in verse 22 that Joel’s prophecy has been fulfilled as they themselves ‘know’. Could Peter be also referring to the astronomical signs that happened on the day Jesus died (as well as the speaking in tongues)? On the ‘Bethlehemstar’ website, it gives some powerful ‘proofs’ for a lunar eclipse on the day Jesus died ie the ‘blood moon’. We know the day turned to night ie the sun was turned to darkness on the day Jesus died, and an earthquake happened that would have caused plumes of smoke and ash ie blood (blood moon) and fire and billows of smoke. So all these ‘signs’ occurred as Joel predicted. They were literally fulfilled. Jesus speaks about similar astronomical signs that will occur IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation. I’m wondering if there were any such astronomical signs reported in 70 AD? If not, then I’m struggling to see how Jesus’ words were fulilled in 70 AD and I’m struggling to see how these ‘signs’ are merely judgmental language.

[Catherine]

I’ve been thinking about the disciples’ question to Jesus in verse 3. Why do they equate the destruction of the temple with Jesus’ coming back and the end of the Age? The disciples didn’t understand a lot of what Jesust taught them, and didn’t understand about Jesus having to die etc and about Jesus not reigning in Jerusalem at that time (are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?’ Their question to Jesus in verse 3 is confusing to me. What did they have in mind when they talk about Jesus’ coming back? What did they have in mind for ‘the end of the Age?’

[Sherman]

Hi Catherine, in Aaron’s defense he has not been posting on here for awhile now. He informed us some months ago that he was stopping.

[Catherine]

Hi Catherine, in Aaron’s defense he has not been posting on here for awhile now. He informed us some months ago that he was stopping.

Thanks for letting me know Sherman. That’s a shame as I’ve read quite a lot of Aaron’s postings and he makes a lot of sense in what he says.