Hermano, I don’t think the Abrahamic covenant required the sacrifice of animals, only a circumcision of the heart. From what I understand, God does not change, and Jesus didn’t need to die on the cross for the Holy Spirit to come into one’s heart. People back then were just as capable of loving others as we are today.
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 says this: “Moreover brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”
Apparently, those coming out of Egypt received the word of Christ and were baptized in the Spirit.
Not always. As 1 Corinthians 10:10 -12 says “nor murmur as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they are written for our admonition, on whom the end of the ages have come. Therefore let him wo thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.”
God works through the hearts and minds of people. The provisions and blessings provided to those who were disobedient came from those who were faithful to God and shared their stuff.
I don’t think this is the case. The covenant was exchanged by those who rejected the Holy Spirit and “returned to Egypt”. In other words they brought their pagan practices with them and incorporated them into the law, and basically turned the God of Israel into a pagan god.
I think that John the Baptist helps us to better understand the Old Testament saints.
-Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Matthew 11:11.
-Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water AND the Spirit. John 3:5.
Old Testament believers had the Holy Spirit, and they were saved by faith—looking forward to the promise of the Messiah. But they were not born again or born from above into the kingdom of God that we born again Christians now live in.
Additionally, Old Testament believers after physical death went below to the “Paradise” side of the grave, waiting until the visit, resurrection, and ascension, of Christ, at which time they, and Paradise, ascended to heaven.
I believe these were types and shadows, with a later fulfillment in Christ: in his crucifixion, his breathing on the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit after his resurrection (Jn. 20:22), and his sending of the Baptism in the Spirit, with outflowing manifestations like tongues, at Pentecost (Acts 2).
That destroying by the destroyer occurred only after Mount Sinai, under the Mosaic Covenant.
Even the “New Testament” saints didn’t have the spirit of God remaining in them until that special day of Pentecost. Jesus put it this way to His disciples. “The spirit of truth…dwells with you and will be in you.”
Hermano, as Corinthians says: all were baptized into Moses in the cloud (Spirit) and in the sea(water).
Yes, they were born again, just as born again Christians are today.
Sea change- a profound or notable transformation; conversion
We don’t know what happens after physical death, and neither did the writers of the Bible.
From what I understand, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace, forbearance, kindness goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. What you are suggesting is that no person that ever existed before Jesus had such qualities. I find that very hard to believe.
I disagree. On the contrary, they all agreed to obey the true,everlasting covenant of God, as it says in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4. However, some turned away as is told in the parable of the sower and the seed. Acts 7:37-50 also speaks about what happened. Some took up the tabernacle of Molech, but those who remained faithful received the inheritance and came into the promised land.
Paidion, As Moses said, “The word is very near you in your mouth and in your heart that you should obey it.”
No, not under the Mosaic covenant but under the Levitical law. Under the Moses, they received the “bread of heaven”, “whom our fathers( the Jerusalem that now is- Gal. 4:25) would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him’.”
Acts 7:44-45 'Our fathers ( the Jerusalem which was free) had the (true) tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as He appointed, instructing Moses to make it according to the pattern that he had seen, which our fathers, having received it in turn brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles…"
As Acts 7:51 goes on to say: you stiff -necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did , so do you."
Abraham cast out Hagar and her son.
Moses cast out the Levites giving them no portion in the inheritance- Simeon and Levi being murderers from the start.
Joshua relegated them to the cities of refuge-for the slayer.(Joshua chapter 21)
So there were two covenants- the Mosaic covenant and the Levitical law
Two rocks-Mount Horeb and Mount Sinai.
Two priesthoods- the order of Melchizedek and the Levitical-the order of Aaron
Two trees -the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Two sons-Isaac- of the Spirit and Ishmael -of foreign gods
Two kingdoms- one of man and one of God
And as Galatians 4:27 says, the desolate( Hagar) had many more children than the one who had a husband(Sarah).
LLC, I’ve got to ask, where or what is your position as to those of us can learn about what you believe give us a signal head to what you believe. Can you give us a view of what you think about scripture, and how you see it as defiant against Christianity…
Davo, Genesis 49:5-7 says this: “Simeon and Levi are brothers; instruments of cruelty are in their habitation. Let not my soul enter their council; let not my honor be united in their assembly; for in their anger they slew a man, and in their self will they hamstrung an ox. Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce; and their wrath for it is cruel! I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.”
This is why Moses gave them no inheritance or portion with the children of Israel. They built a golden calf at the bottom of Mount Sinai. Do you think that he would suddenly turn around and call them holy people of God and put them in charge of the priesthood?
As Moses says in Deuteronomy 32:3-5 “For I proclaim the name of the Lord; ascribe greatness to our God. He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He. they have corrupted themselves; they are not His children, because of their blemish, a perverse and crooked generation.”
Levite means snake. And yes, I believe Moses gave them their priesthood in the sense that he allowed them freedom of worship, and that they could eat the fruit of the gods which they chose to follow.
We all know what happened in the end. The Levitical priesthood was tossed out the door along with their law. So Moses’ words were true.
MM, To me, the Levitical law was not the covenant given to Moses, nor was it the covenant Moses gave to the children of Israel. There are some who claim that the books of Moses were all written by Moses himself. I don’t believe that’s the case. If you have a chance, you may want to read up on the Documentary Hypothesis.
“Levi” of which Levite became the tribal extension, e.g., Judah = Judahite etc. The name LEVI actually means: attached / joined — which IF you consulted the bible as opposed to wherever you glean your ideas from you’d know…
Gen 29:34She conceived again and bore a son, and said, “Now this time my husband will become attached to me, because I have borne him three sons.” Therefore his name was called Levi.
This is so far removed from reality it can’t even be said you have the cart before the horse… the cart is NOWHERE NEAR the horse! The VERY REASON WHY the Levites had Jacob’s curse turned into God’s blessing was because of their zealous display in honour of God IN THE FACE OF Israel’s idolatrous golden calf incident. It was from THIS that they were then drawn from among the other tribes and given THEIR portion IN THE LORD as HIS PORTIONas previously noted from scripture, but consider further…
Ex 32:25-29Now when Moses saw that the people were unrestrained (for Aaron had not restrained them, to their shame among their enemies), then Moses stood in the entrance of the camp, and said, “Whoever is on the Lord’s side—come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together to him. And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Let every man put his sword on his side, and go in and out from entrance to entrance throughout the camp, and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.’” So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day. Then Moses said, “Consecrate yourselves today to the Lord, that He may bestow on you a blessing this day, for every man has opposed his son and his brother.”
The fulfillment of THAT blessing came as follows…
Num 3:5-9And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: “Bring the tribe of Levi near, and present them before Aaron the priest, that they may serve him. And they shall attend to his needs and the needs of the whole congregation before the tabernacle of meeting, to do the work of the tabernacle. Also they shall attend to all the furnishings of the tabernacle of meeting, and to the needs of the children of Israel, to do the work of the tabernacle. And you shall give the Levites to Aaron and his sons; they are given entirely to him from among the children of Israel.
In fact the Levites were taken specifically BY GOD being dedicated TO HIM as HIS FIRSTBORN in exchange for and on behalf of all Israel…
Num 3:11-13Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: “Now behold, I Myself have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of every firstborn who opens the womb among the children of Israel. Therefore the Levites shall be Mine, because all the firstborn are Mine. On the day that I struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, I sanctified to Myself all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast. They shall be Mine: I am the Lord.”
This then contradicts FULLY your errant notion here…
The texts of scripture say NOTHING LIKE what your beliefs claim — as welcome as you are to them.
Attached to what? Maybe the gods of Laban? Simeon and Levi seemed to have inherited the same
qualities as their grandfather. Do you think that the name Levi and Leviathan have something in common?
They were the idolaters. As Acts 7:40 says "And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt , saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses, we do not know what has become of him.’
As this verse that you pointed out says: all the firstborn are Mine. All the firstborn of Israel were sanctified to Him. The Levites were the firstborn of Egypt("And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt)), the portion reserved for the fire.
From what I understand, the people who follow God inherit all that belongs to Him, including His Holy Spirit and the priesthood. As Deut. 28:8-9 says: “The Lord will command blessings on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you and in the land which the Lord your God is giving you. The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep His commandments.”
Let’s see. Did the Levites keep these commandments?
You shall have no other gods before Me.
Do not murder.
3.Love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
According to Deut. 29:21 those who disobey are “separated from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant.”
As I said before, one cannot argue with the truth. The Levitical priesthood and their Levitical law brought destruction. They received no inheritance or portion because there was nothing left to inherit.
Did God kill Adam when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Davo. I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase, " You reap what you sow."
As it is said, Abraham was the father of all who believe in Jesus’ words. To me, this means Abraham was a teacher of the Christian faith, as was Moses. “For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”(1 Cor. 10:4).
What your position reaps on Scripture is carnage and contradiction… the Levitical Priesthood of the bible was exclusively dedicated to the worship and service of no one else but Yahweh alone and NOT any multiplicity of gods as you falsely claim — you are just plain WRONG and all reading along who know their bibles also KNOW you are just plain WRONG!
Again, as Hebrews 7:11 says, 'Therefore if perfection ( the Law of God-Psalm 19:7 “The Law of the Lord is perfect-reviving the soul.”) were through the Levitical priesthood ( for under it the people received the (Levitical ) law), what further need was there that another priest should arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and NOT be called according to the order of Aaron?"
Here’s what Jesus Himself said of their law: Mark7:7, Matt.15:9 "They worship me in vain; they teach as doctrines the commandments of men."
Isaiah 29:13 "Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men."
Colossians 2:22 -23 “These will all perish with use, **because they are based on human commands and teachings.**These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in **self-imposed religion, false humility and neglect of the body but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.”
If they were exclusively dedicated to the worship and service of God as you suggest, then one would think they’d have recognized Jesus.
HFPZ, We can always count on you to throw in some humor.
Yes AND!?Perfection wasn’t the goal… but that aside THIS verse says nothing to confirm your false claim that the Levitical priesthood worshiped false gods.
The “THEY” Jesus chastised were NOT the Levite priests… THEY were the Pharisees and scribes as per Mk 7:1, 5, 8b and Mt 15:1, 12. Just another of your UNSUBSTANTIATED examples where you twist the text to seek and tie the Levites to your false claim that they worshiped false gods.
It’s way more than what I “suggest” — it IS what the biblical text plainly and CLEARLY states… as I’ve already quoted in previous posts, but which you simply deny and ignore in favour of your own false claim that the Levitical priesthood worshipped after many false gods — ONLY this claim of yours proves to be false — you’re NOT fooling anyone else here!
LLC: So I can “see”: your claim VERIFIED. Can you provide a web URL…with an article to someone in authority…showing that you claim is correct? Rather than just your “spin”, on select scriptural verses?
Yes, perfection was the goal.
Matt. 5:48 'Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect."
2 Cor.7:1 " Therfore having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
1John 2:5 “but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has been truly perfected."
Philippians 3:15 " Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal it to you.”
John 17:23 “I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity."
James 1:4 " And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.”
These Pharisees and scribes you speak of were following the Levitical law, which was the teaching of the Levitical priesthood.
As Acts 7:37:43 says Moses gave them the living oracles ( “For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ.”) However, the Levites rejected Moses "and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, saying to Aaron ‘Make us gods to go before us.’ “Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven.”
Ezekial 20:18 “But I said to their children in the wilderness, ’ Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols. I am the Lord your God; Walk in My statutes, keep My judgments and do them.”
They continued to worship their false gods through the works of their own hands which was the Levitical law.
Those who followed the Levitical law rejected the words of Jesus and murdered Him. Jesus was NOT their authority, the Levitical law was, what more is there to say?
