The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?

I’m doing my part, for Eastern Orthodoxy and Christianity…and leading folks into the kingdom. I hope I’m going about this, the right way! :blush:

Only Matthew uses the phrase “kingdom of heaven,” and he uses it 31 times. He also uses the phrase “kingdom of God” 4 times. Mark, Luke, and John do not use “kingdom of heaven” at all. Does that mean that Mark, Luke, and John didn’t believe in the kingdom of heaven? Not at all. It’s just that they used exclusively the phrase “kingdom of God” in reference to the same kingdom. Mark used it 13 times, Luke 31 times, and John twice. All this shows is that Matthew preferred the phrase “kingdom of heaven” when writing about the one and only kingdom of God.

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Okay. So would it follow that Mark, Luke, and John didn’t mind offending Jews?

Also, If that were Matthew’s concern, I wouldn’t expect him to use the phrase “Kingdom of God” at all. Yet he did use the phrase 4 times in his “gospel.”

The rich man in Hades who was being tormented was receiving instruction.

John already wrote that Jesus takes away the sin of the world & is its Savior (John1:29; 4:42; 1 John 2:1-2, etc). And saw everyone worshipping the Lamb (Rev.5:13).

I don’t know what the lake of fire has to do with Matthew 7:21 or this thread, but it’s often equated with Gehenna which is referred to earlier in Jesus’ teaching in chapters 5-7.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.

“They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing – which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they’ve been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages.”

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon…
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

Also compare the Matthew 5 Gehenna contexts, 1 Cor.6:9-11 & similar Pauline remarks with:

Rev.21:8 But to the cowardly and unbelieving and having become abominable and murderers and the sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their portion is in the lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

1 Cor.6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor coveters, not drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And some of you were such. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

And WHAT was the instruction the rich man in Hades received… betwixt the two there was a GREAT IMPASSABLE CHASM FIRMLY FIXED!!!

Lk 16:23-24, 26 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

So much for the PU doctrine that views postmortem fiery torments as a mere transit station on the way to better destinations.

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To the OP: I think that in most cases, this sort of question is based on an erroneous “understanding” as to what “the Kingdom of Heaven” means. We assume that “Kingdon of Heaven”=“The place you go after you die if you’ve prayed the sinners prayer and really, really meant it.”

A kingdom is a region in which a king reigns. If the King doesn’t reign in any man’s life, then that man is not ruled by the king’s authority. He hasn’t entered into the Kingdom of God. This would not, as I understand it, be as difficult a concept for a Jew of Jesus’ day. To me, a kingdom is a country with physical borders. To most of us, God’s kingdom is a sort of place…the place we think of as Heaven.

Jesus was sort of stating the obvious, but it still needed saying. “If you’re not obeying the King, then you’re not under his authority. You ought to be. He has a right to your obedience, but you’re not giving it, so you’re not in (subject to) the kingdom of God.

The hopeful part of this is that anyone, at any time, can repent and believe the gospel (good news) that Jesus Christ came to save sinners… from what? From their SINS. And sin consists in, basically, disobeying the commands of God. We are, through Him, saved from our sins. When anyone accepts this and stops sinning through the power of Christ, then he is in the Kingdom of God. He doesn’t have to pack up his suitcase and hop on a plane to get there. Just obey the King and you’re in the Kingdom right now. You don’t even have to die (physically). Obedience puts you there.

Perhaps the Kingdom of Heaven is simply wherever the will of the King is done.

Nonsense. That has already been addressed in post 14 (see also posts 1 & 12) here:

.Luke 16:19-31 rich man in "hell"

And by Tom Talbott in post 13 here:

.Luke 16:19-31 rich man in "hell"

Throughout the Scriptures God’s punishments/torments/wrath etc are often clearly corrective. Why would His nature of love suddenly change with the lake of fire punishment. The burden of proof is on those who disagree to provide evidence otherwise. Moreover the word “punishment” in Mt.25:46, which is parallel to the tormenting punishment in fire of Satan & humans in the lake of fire (Mt.25:41; Rev.20:10; cf. 14:9-11), can mean corrective chastening for the good of the offender.

The question is: are the torments in the lake of fire corrective or not. I’ve provided Scriptural evidence (in multiple posts above) that it is. You’ve provided nothing that it isn’t. If you think it isn’t, then do you think Love Omnipotent is a sadist?

Nonsense!? You’ve got that down pat and mastered to a tee! From your linked post above you come out with this drivel…

You are falsifying the text… it NOWHERE says such separation was… “Only that at that moment in time it was so.” You can put all the words you like into Jesus’ mouth BUT he didn’t speak ANYTHING like your weak argument claims… NOTHING NOWHERE!!

And as for this…

No you have NOT! You [mis]quote given texts attaching YOUR own meaning and spin claiming this to be “evidence”, cough — it is NOT! IF you actually had any such text plainly stating as you errantly claim you’d have given it, period… you never do and you have will BECAUSE you can’t — as always your claims are nothing more than mere conjecture and supposition.

The Lake Of Fire is called the Lake of Fire And Brimstone (Sulfur)

HELPS Word Study states:

4442 pyr - fire. In scripture, fire is often used figuratively - like with the “fire of God” which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself.

The Greek word for sulfur is theion and is described as divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease. The Jewish culture used sulfur in purification rites:

blueletterbible.org/lang/lex … 2303&t=KJV

In the Bible God can and does use fire not only to punish and correct but to purify. The word usage and meanings in “The Lake Of Fire” make that likely. The other reason why is because the Bible elsewhere states that God is the savior of all people. Especially of them that believe. Some are saved by grace in this lifetime others by fire without faith in the next. Indeed the whole creation is said to be destroyed by fire and then made new. Moreover, the word for fire is pur which is where we get the word purify. The word for torment comes from the word basanos and means a touchstone (a dark stone used in testing metals). HELPS word study has this to say about it:

Cognate: 931 basanos - originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as “a touchstone” to test the purity of precious metals (like silver or gold. ad 288)

Basanos can easily be replaced with the word test instead of torment because fire was used to test and purify metals as it tells us in Corinthians. The fires of God’s wrath of holy hatred destroy but the scriptures say that His anger is only for a moment but His love endures forever. What we see at the cross in the death of Christ is a destruction judgment followed by resurrection. Given His substitutionary atonement I conclude this is what the lake of fire does. It kills but then makes alive.

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…which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself.

And yet again NO texts provided to back the claim… by all means make the claim if one wishes, BUT DON’T couch it in language purporting to be scriptural WHEN IT’S NOT and no texts supplied saying otherwise.

No argument with that… but context and accuracy determine everything.

The lexical word study proves you wrong.

No it does not! :roll_eyes:

Don’t be too sure that Revelation says they are tormented.

The Greek word so translated is βασανιζω. Look the word up in any Greek Lexicon. The primary meaning is:

to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Attempts will be made to correct those who will be in the Lake of Fire. From time to time they will be tested to see whether they have responded by repenting and becoming pure.

I never said the text uses those words. It does, however, speak in the present tense & says nothing about the chasm being an endless condition or even one that would hinder people from crossing for more than 5 minutes. Furthermore, people get out of Hades. You also ignored post 13 by Thomas Talbott. See also post 14 in that thread re the meaning of words.

I did provide a strong case, as in evidence, not proof, from Scripture. You & qaz have largely ignored all of it. And provided no reasonable Scriptural alternate view. In fact you’ve generally evaded Revelation 20-22 in all discussions I’ve had with you, whenever I’ve commented on those chapters, since they are problematic for your Pantelistic interpretation of the Scriptures. I’ll expect the same here.

According to the following url source, apparently BDAG:

SourceURL:https://translate.academic.ru/βασανιζω/el/xx/

And another lexicon there, LSJ (?), states: