The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Matthew 7:21 never enter heaven?


#241

Yes AND!? Perfection wasn’t the goal… but that aside THIS verse says nothing to confirm your false claim that the Levitical priesthood worshiped false gods.

The “THEY” Jesus chastised were NOT the Levite priests… THEY were the Pharisees and scribes as per Mk 7:1, 5, 8b and Mt 15:1, 12. Just another of your UNSUBSTANTIATED examples where you twist the text to seek and tie the Levites to your false claim that they worshiped false gods.

It’s way more than what I “suggest” — it IS what the biblical text plainly and CLEARLY states… as I’ve already quoted in previous posts, but which you simply deny and ignore in favour of your own false claim that the Levitical priesthood worshipped after many false gods — ONLY this claim of yours proves to be false — you’re NOT fooling anyone else here!


#242

Davo to LLC

LLC: So I can “see”: your claim VERIFIED. Can you provide a web URL…with an article to someone in authority…showing that you claim is correct? Rather than just your “spin”, on select scriptural verses?

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#243

Yes, perfection was the goal.
Matt. 5:48 'Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect."
2 Cor.7:1 " Therfore having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
1John 2:5 “but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has been truly perfected."
Philippians 3:15 " Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal it to you.”
John 17:23 “I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity."
James 1:4 " And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.”

These Pharisees and scribes you speak of were following the Levitical law, which was the teaching of the Levitical priesthood.

As Acts 7:37:43 says Moses gave them the living oracles ( “For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ.”) However, the Levites rejected Moses "and in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, saying to Aaron ‘Make us gods to go before us.’ “Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven.”

Ezekial 20:18 “But I said to their children in the wilderness, ’ Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols. I am the Lord your God; Walk in My statutes, keep My judgments and do them.”

They continued to worship their false gods through the works of their own hands which was the Levitical law.

Those who followed the Levitical law rejected the words of Jesus and murdered Him. Jesus was NOT their authority, the Levitical law was, what more is there to say?


#244

Since we are “discussing” Levitical law …let me share what the non-denominational site - Got Questions - has to say:

If I were a betting man…I could say with 90% certainity…that LLC would disagree with them.

Then we have the CARM article (AKA Calvinist Matt Slick)

Why do we follow some Levitical laws and not others regarding things like homosexuality and eating shellfish?

Here’s a quote, that got my attention:

We do not follow all the Levitical laws in the Old Testament because some of those laws were intended only for Israel, while others were for everyone. For example, atonement for unintentional sins was meant for Israel (Lev. 4:2), where not committing adultery was intended for everyone (Lev. 18:20; 20:10).


#245

Again, it seems you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God… the Levites assisted in the practical outworking of Israel’s atonement!

Sorry… but just doing a word-search on “perfection” (with NILL reference to the Levites) just doesn’t cut the mustard.

And yet from you again… NO scriptural reference of said “Levitical priesthood” following and worshipping a plethora of false gods — will you put up or shut up :question:

This above was collective Israel (Ex 32:1, 7-9), which ok, was technically inclusive of the tribe of Levi, BUT… when challenged to serve the way of Yahweh or idolatry OR NOT the Levites en masse sided with Moses (Ex 32:26-29) and in doing so proved their allegiance to Yahweh; for which HE DULY APPOINTED THEM AS EXCLUSIVELY HIS and as such consecrated them to be HIS priests. It’s ALL THERE in the texts I’ve previously given, plus others I haven’t.

IF only you READ the whole chapter enabling you to grasp some context… the idols of defilement was NOT the Levitical law as to again wrongly claim, NO, all such was relative to EGYPT out of which Israel had been delivered, but of which in rebellion they sought to return. The likes of Ezek 20:225-26 was fully idolatrous and had NOTHING, repeat NOTHING to do with Levitical law.

PS: LLC… I’m done wasting time on such unsubstantiated foolishness. :roll_eyes:


#246

And this proved their allegiance to God?

From what I recall God said this:

Obviously they didn’t change. They were just like their fathers Simeon and Levi -murderers and liars. And they murdered Jesus as well.

The Levites were given no portion or inheritance with the children of Israel.
The children of Israel are those who obey God. He is their God and they are His people-holy. Those who do not obey God are not the children of Israel. They are children who follow other gods.

Read the Levitical law.

And you would have definitely won the bet!:grinning:


#247

I suppose if being in perfect union with God in order to receive the inheritance was not the goal, then there would have been no need for Jesus to come and teach them the truth. He could have just let them continue to believe in the false teachings of their leaders.


#248

LLC… your quotes of me are the only portions of your posts that make any sense — you’ll do no better than refer yourself back to them to gain any semblance of sanity.


#249

Davo, I don’t see what’s so difficult to understand.
The prerequisite for being a child of Abraham/Israel was that your heart be circumcised and you obey God( the words of Christ). In other words you are “born of the Spirit.” This is the way it was and still is today.

Moses gave no portion or inheritance to the Levites-NADA, NOTHING, ZILCH, ZERO, ZIP that means NOT EVEN THE PRIESTHOOD-because they were NOT the children of Israel. They worshipped other gods.

If the Levites were murdering their neighbors, brothers and companions, they were obviously NOT HOLY according to the Laws of the God of Israel. They made themselves holy according to their own laws( the Levitical law), took over the priesthood and persecuted those who were born of the Spirit(Galatians 4:21-31).

Circumcising the male genitals
Eating certain foods
Washing yourself in literal water
Burning incense
Sacrificing animals
Celebrating the New Moon
Reciting every verse in the Bible
Putting ashes on your head
Prostrating yourself
etc.etc.etc.
None of these things make you holy. What makes you holy is being holy. “Be holy as I am holy.”
Don’t lie
Don’t cheat
Don’t murder
Don’t steal
Love God, love others as you love yourself, and all the things that correspond to this.

Burning incense does not ma


#250

If you are indicating that Moses judged the Levites as unworthy (because of their violence), then what about Moses himself? He was also a Levite, and directed them to execute about 3,000 out of control worshipers of the golden calf:

Exodus 32:25-27
25 And when Moses saw that the people had broken loose (for Aaron had let them break loose, to the derision of their enemies),
26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, “Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me.” And all the sons of Levi gathered around him.
27 And he said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.’”


#251

Hermano, As I mentioned before, I don’t think the books of Moses were written by one author, but are a combination of different writers. This plus the age of the documents, language barriers, etc. makes it somewhat difficult to try to piece together what actually happened. That being said, to me, the Levites seem to have been a problem from the start, always rebellious. I don’t see them suddenly being the ONLY ones rushing to his aid. This sounds odd. For example, in Numbers chapter 15, Korah rebels against Moses’ authority starting a battle that killed 14,700 people.


#252

Here’s both a Catholic and a Jewish perspective:

Catholic answers: Who Wrote the Books of Moses?

Quora: How many books did Moses write?

So we have some Catholic, Wiki contributors and Jewish - scholarly perspectives. NOT:

  • I THINK this is who - or what - Moses wrote.

  • Or this is what Moses wrote, based upon these Biblical verses

  • Etc.

There are scholarly presentations - with footnotes.

I’m still trying to figure out, who wrote the book of love!


#253

HFPZ, I didn’t know that it was a crime to think for myself. Thanks for enlightening me. However, even dummies like me can tell in reading the books of Moses that they were not written by one author. Maybe what gives it away is that the same stories are told multiple times but the details have been changed. How many times did Moses give the Ten Commandments?


#254

Hey, LLC. I really don’t think it’s a big issue, on what books Moses wrote. It’s more important, what our “spin” is …on books the “experts” THINK Moses wrote. But as an aside…a professional writer can write in different voices and different styles…NOT that writing was Moses, God given expertise - mind you!


#255

HF, Then again, as Jesus and His disciples warn us, many will come in His name preaching false doctrines- we should watch out for this. My overall impression from the Old Testament is that the Levites were- excuse my expression- bad arses. I’m not saying that all of them were, as we well know that there can be good among any group. However, at the time, Moses was proposing a whole different way of life and it seems the Levites in particular were not willing to accept it. The rule of the kingdom was no longer going to be, " Hey, my ancestors slept with some imaginary god and I’m of “royal blood”, or the rule of the wealthy, the rule of whoever had the most military power, friends in high places, " I’ll scratch your back, if you scratch mine etc. etc. etc. We know how it all works. On the contrary, under Moses, leaders were to be selected by the quality of their character, men of truth. Korah was quite a wealthy man and I imagine that this was “old family” money. He wasn’t about to give it up. The priesthood would have been an opportunity for him. Maybe I’m wrong but I kinda picture it like the mafia in the Roman Catholic Church, organized crime hidden behind the veil of goodness.


#256

According to this article:

Priests and Levites in the First Century C.E., it says:

Levites were similar to priests in that they were a patrilineal, hereditary order and they worked in the temple. Their purity was important, too, but the rules regulating them were not as strict. Levites were not regarded as highly as priests for most of the Second Temple period (539 B.C.E.–70 C.E.); they are often described as a lower-level priesthood. They manned the temple gates, cleaned the temple, slaughtered some of the sacrificial animals, and performed the music during temple worship (1Chr 23-25).

And here’s a bit about the author:

Jonathan Stökl
Lecturer, King’s College

Jonathan Stökl is lecturer in Hebrew Bible/Old Testament at King’s College London. His research focuses on prophets and priests in the Hebrew Bible and ancient Near East. His first book, Prophecy in the Ancient Near East: A Philological and Sociological Comparison , was published by Brill in 2012.

So apparently, they did have to show - some level of public purity.

True. I sometimes think some folks - on this forum - cross that boundary. Rather than talking about RATIONAL theological stuff…like the tribulation and Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)! :wink:


#257

HF, Thanks for the link.:grinning:
From what I gather, Moses doesn’t seem to be suggesting a kingdom ruled by any one religion but rather a “nation of holy people” under the universal laws of God. If you notice, Moses chose Joshua as his successor. I don’t know if his wife and kids were happy about this or not. Not much to go on there. However, Aaron’s sons take the priesthood. It sounds to me like “all in the family”, same old, same old.

As they say today, “True that.”:grinning: