3.“The lost when they die go into immediate chastisement” . Do they? Is this concept based on Jesus parable of Lazarus and Devises? I have come to think that the basis of that parable was to use current and not necessarily correct borrowed Greek ideas to demonstrate God’s justice to the self reightous Jewish leaders who had incorporated these ideas in their theology and value system. They do seem to have worked out that Jesus parable was directed at them. Where else does this concept arise? I do agree that correction and chastisement will come in some form, maybe as Cindy suggests. Thanks for bringing up the foundational aspect Kate, must think on that!
It was something about “He knows how to keep the lost under chastisement for the day of judgment” in an epistle somewhere. Anyone know? [tag]JasonPratt[/tag]? [tag]Paidion[/tag]?
I see why you might be thinking Lazarus, but that’s not what I was referring to Chris – I don’t think that parable is even about eschatology. ([Raising Lazarus/url]) Sorry to be brief – am stealing a moment here – visiting family.](http://www.journeyintotheson.com/2012/04/18/raising-lazarus/)
It was something about “He knows how to keep the lost under chastisement for the day of judgment” in an epistle somewhere. Anyone know? [tag]JasonPratt[/tag]? [tag]Paidion[/tag]?
I see why you might be thinking Lazarus, but that’s not what I was referring to Chris – I don’t think that parable is even about eschatology. (Raising Lazarus) Sorry to be brief – am stealing a moment here – visiting family.
You may be thinking of this verse, Cindy:
Of course, some will not agree to translating “κολαζομενους” (kolazomenous) as “to be corrected” and will insist that it sometimes means “to be punished” (in a retributive sense, or at least in the sense of penalization).
Thanks, Don! That’s the one! 
I’ve also heard it given as more like: He knows how to keep the ungodly under chastisement for the day of judgment.
As an aside I’ll tend to view the Gentiles who follow the law as referring to Gentile Christians rather than a ‘third’ group besides Jews and Gentiles in Paul’s dense argument in Romans. Anyway, the reason I take this view is due to the following thinking:
ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Law_Romans2.pdf
As to the subject at hand, this is something that is striking a little too close to home for me, and find it difficult to easily relate to talk of chastisements and purgings being actively brought to bear on people either prior or post resurrection (or both the intermediate period and resurrection together as a whole thing), as in effect that is saying this is being or will be done to my brother even after all the pain and suffering he already went through this last year. And that is a difficult thing for me to accept, nor could I deal with that picture of God, but I shall try to put forward the views I do have.
(I have been trying to write this for a bit, but I have been having difficulty doing it, so in the end I just set out the opinion and views I gave to seekingtruth in relation to her question along these lines, and edited it slightly, and hope that can help, along with references and quotes from one or to other posts I have made in this area in the past)
'Well for myself I think I have defined myself as an inclusive universalist, which is founded in part significantly on the understanding of the Gospel presenting the arrival of God’s Kingdom, the new creation or renewal and revival of the universe in Jesus (with new creation being the way John’s Gospel puts things), linked with the understanding that the word gospel in the 1st century was usually the announcement that the ‘good news’ that Ceasar was kyrios or lord of the world, so when people Jew or Gentile heard Christians proclaiming the gospel for Jesus, it was the gospel that it was Jesus not Ceasar that was the true lord of the world (which you see an indication of in Acts 17:7 ‘and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus.’). And part of the gospel to accept and respond to true Lord of this world and the new ways of His Kingdom that is already here, that the resurrection from the dead and the new creation has already began and opened up for everyone, the liberation and Jubliee from all debt and slavery, and fundamentally from death and it’s effects on humanity at all levels and functions.
To use the imagery of ransom and slavery (which in part draws strongly from the Exodus narrative and imagery) presented in the NT, all humanity which was already accepted by and to God (and always was) and He was always reconciled to us, be we by turning from the grace and calling of God to become like God and share His Life and nature, and from all being, meaning and life, serving and worshipping the creation rather than the Creator, unleashing the power of death and non-being fully upon ourselves, becoming dominated, enslaved and indebted to death, and so had to be ransomed from the hold of death so they could be able to come back into reconciliation with God, themselves, each other and creation and into synergy with and participation in His Life and become the full humans individually and corporately they were meant to be. The unleashing of those anti-creational forces of death and chaos has caused a marring of the world and ourselves and we are affected by it through complex and numerous sources - family, societal and biological, genetic, psychological, spiritual and historical etc. This move out of out of union with God and therefore full being for ourselves and creation, has held humanity in captivity and debt, from which we have been freed in Christ when He took on and shared our humanity and also our curse to death, to both free and come back into sharing and partaking in His Life, released to come back into the grace to become like God again, sharing His nature and immortality, and so become truly human at last, and bringing God’s love, wisdom and restoring management to creation As Paul says in Romans, all creation longs for the revealing of the sons of God, when we are what we are supposed to be, and in union with God, than all the things in creation are free from the decay and futility it has been subjected to, and is free to become what it is called to be, and find full union and participation with the Life and Love of God through us, as He floods the universe, the other He created in love with Himself, bringing it into full union with Himself in Christ, the truly human One in whom the calling of God to humanity has been fulfilled.
Since the gospel is about people following and being part of the Kingdom in this world and of being part of the new creation (two ways I guess of talking about the same things 
) and returning to their true humanity in God and walking in that grace to be grow back into union of God and and reflect Him into the world in their own unique way and become more the human their are, there are many who are loyal to His Lordship when they commit themselves to working in love and for justice and righteousness in the world and commit their lives in this area. It is the Holy Spirit working in them, and if God is God then we shouldn’t be surprised He is reflected in many systems and philosophies and as people live in faith with they are beginning to follow Him and step into His Lordship and the new creation that is already present (particularly when we don’t have perfect knowledge even as Christians ). And assuming they don’t realize or really know Jesus as One their faith, hope and life is being directed, or whose dominion and freedom they have already began to accept and be faithful to, then at the resurrection they will know Jesus was the target of direction of the faith and life in which they were growing all along and embrace Him whom they loved, whose Life they live in and Kingdom they followed without realising it. For this category of people I’ll also include many who haven’t really heard the actually gospel or heard about Jesus, but have rather seen hatred or been driven away by seeing in some Christians something other than Jesus Himself in their behaviour or teaching or so on. So what happened was for the whole world, and was to bring humans into their full life with God, and His Lordship is everywhere, just as there was the exorcist who used Jesus name to free people from demons and when the disciples mentioned it He told them whoever isn’t against them was for them, and that such a one was already working as part of His Kingdom (seen in Mark 9:39). So I as all humanity was freed to re-enter and take part in His Life again and inherent by grace the full immortal Life through His taking on of humanity through the Resurrection, that many are doing this and following His Lordship and will be brought into the resurrection. So I don’t think that it’s such will have to experience what is termed as the second death as they already in this orientation, in Roman terms their like axaulieries who join the full citizenship they was always theirs to take when they see Him (if it doesn’t happen earlier). I’m not sure how clear I’ve made this but it’s a little how how my thought lies in the area.
For the intermediate state I’ll just refer to a thread of Kate’s and what my posts expressed there (as well as talking more on things mentioned above), as I doubt I’m going to express it much better here and it was edited by Cindy more helpfully 
).
As for what those beginning to walk in union with God without fully knowing Christ, perhaps they will see Him and be aware of Him when they die, knowing the reality of things seen and unseen clearly. Outside of that, I don’t know, it would depend on how one viewed the descent of Christ into Hades and what that involves, for that I’ll just post a link to this lecture by Metropolitan Halarion Alfeyev:
glory2godforallthings.com/bishop … nto-hades/
Outside of that possibly awareness all might have in some manner or another through the intermediate period, the other possibility is that those who turn from their humanity and stay that way till their death are not actively participating and growing in union with Christ’s Life might remain in the state of death until the resurrection. If that remains the case, than the limited descriptions on Hades/Sheol as the state and/or place of the dead, would seems to be a period of largely sleep and unawareness with little to no real consciousness until the resurrection. In this view, without life in them, their minds are not fully conscious or aware until the resurrection. The only thing that would seem to disagree would be the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but it has it’s source in a common Jewish folklore common at that time (Josephus mentions it) and has it’s origins in pagan Egyptian sources, which Jesus uses but flips the two common figures and their roles, and the point Our Lord draws from it doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the final judgement or the nature of hades but is a different point altogether (a rather important point, linked to the Pharisees who love mammon and did not use what they been entrusted with and failed to be true sons of Abraham, and did not see their poverty before God and need of His mercy of which the parable’s folklore imagery vividly demonstrated) , one that many so often miss since they try to use this parable to prove something it isn’t referring to at all. So I don’t feel it has anything to say to the intermediate period for those not currently in Christ (and of course says nothing to things post resurrection at all ).
As for post resurrection, and the nature of what the second death means, I don’t see the second death as a active punishment applied by God to purge people, which seems a disturbing idea to me, so I don’t hold to the direct purgatorial views some hold to, I think it’s best if I just quote what I wrote previously in a thread concerning the ‘lake of fire’ for that (as I said, I’m finding this difficult to write, and have covered this ground previously so there isn’t a need to repeat myself overmuch) .
'Well I guess my starting point would to first be that the like of fire is a symbol and is the second death, which if it is to have any relatable understanding must be related to the nature of death and it’s effects as it is now, including the fact that death will be defeated and destroyed in the end, death will die and go into non-existence (and so decay and the power of non-being will be the only thing that ceases to exist as all and brought out and beyond death). Death is in it’s ultimate essence the unmaking, dissolution and the move towards non-being, which would be it’s ultimate effect if God didn’t work to rescue, restore and bring to completion all things through Christ, but as a result death is a correct way therefore to describe the whole process of movement away from union with God, and the true life and being, of a person’s true humanity and person in participation with Jesus, our meaning, nature and being, created by God the Father in the image of the Word (who is the image of God in incarnate form) through the Word so that, through the Word union with the Word that created us we might come to grow into our true nature expressing and partaking in the life and nature of God and come to the knowledge of God the Father, through the grace, that is by the Spirit, so come to find and know our unique, beautiful and diverse humanity and personality in union with God and the Church, and find our real self and being in His Being. So the movement away from communion with Him is to be in movement away from true existence, being and life, and turn from light to darkness and to where things are failing apart, in decay and corruption, which is often manifested in things called sins, but are outward signs of this deeper infection, spreading outwards effecting and twisting relationships and all human activity both between each other, towards God, and towards creation, bring it’s power to create strange twists, perversions and bring collapse even to the things we make and create, so beauty loses transcendence, no longer pointing beyond itself but inwards and becomes part of the decay and corruption, so that even in everyday life in such things as food and clothing, the process of death begins to degrade the true nature of everything. People cook and eat for pleasure or even worse without regard for substance, and dress for selfish effect without honourable reasons and ignoring it’s cost to others. Seeing this and it’s role in the world is to see the many ways we refuse to come into the light and love darkness instead, staying away from coming into full life and being, and instead staying with the very thing that mars and unmakes us.
The second death must therefore be of a nature that is the same the first, and the destructive image of the lake of fire is the very destructive nature of death brought into sharp relief and awareness, the darkness parts of life and being and the destruction of death is demonstrated as I see it there, with the verdict remaining the same as revealed in opening of John’s Gospel, in 3:19-20:
‘This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear their deeds will be exposed.’
It remains the same, the judgement rendered through Jesus’ ministry, and through the cross, death and resurrection of the Lord, that is the same restoring and reconciling judgement calling people to be reconciled and healed and through them the healing and restoring of the whole world that is bring brought to completion, it won’t be added to with a new negative judgement I think. The difference that is illustrated is that the self-delusion and the ability to hide in the darkness of make-believe and secrecy indicated above will no longer be possible when the One who is Love and Truth appears and all creation is filled to overflowing with His glory as He restores all the creation He loves. In the Presence of His Love, the One who is Truth, there will be no possibly of hiding from the Light anymore, and as this image in Revelation at least in part suggests as I take it, their deeds and more deeply, the very nature of death that has affected them will be exposed, and there will be no possibly to hide from it in self-delusion and colluding with the deception of death, there will be no more darkness to hide the nature of death from themselves anymore and what it has and is doing to them, and will understand will full clarity, where His light will shine as it does already now for those who start to stop hiding, to shine not only on the symptoms of death, but it’s root, and so turn from it in repentance and a broken spirit and accept the forgiveness and love that He holds out and be healed and reconciled as they embrace the saving judgement of God, and enter into real life and reality in union with God, leaving the toxic infections of death and finding real life. Forgiveness and the ransom in Christ is the cure and deliverance from death and the sin it brings, already given by God and made clear even to those who have turned from much of their humanity currently throughout this age, and will come to know what they have run and hide from to their own hurt all this time as there will be no more hiding from the truth, and in that truth in which the destruction of death is brought into full clarity, and are see the One who has identified with them and their death to receive His Life and their own true nature in Him, are drawn and persuaded by His love as He continues to reach and be with them into confession and repentance to walk in the light that is found in Christ and communion with the rest of humanity, cleansed through the blood and life of Jesus the Messiah from all sin and death, and restored to full and immortal life and being in Him, sharing in His Life as He does our humanity (per 1 John 1:7-9).
It is the same rescue as now, that is bring brought to full completion when the new creation began in the Resurrection is brought to completion at His appearance in my understanding, and stands in continuity as well as discontinuity with the current situation rather then something new or a different kind of judgement the one already done in the Cross and the Resurrection, and what is brought now as the people accept the saving judgement of Jesus’ Lordship are the forgiveness God has already given and accept and partake in the ransom and rescue from death and partake in the new Life, the very life of God Himself He has released and opened to the whole of humanity and the rescue of the whole universe that this will bring, but here being brought to completion. It is as I see it, the reason for the resurrection of the wicked, to bring them into the full Resurrection and draw all people to Himself.’
I agree with many of the things you have presented.
Two sources have led me to this agreement:
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the concept of the Logos. Apparently, the ECF used that concept as encouragement to engage outsiders; they felt that the universal structure of reality and Reason gave a common base with which to engage those with alternate beliefs and worldviews.
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The C.S. Lewis book - one of my favorites - Til We Have Faces. The story of a Pagan woman and culture; within that culture and within her conscience lay fundamental realities, and a way of true spiritual enlightenment. I find the whole story just fascinating.
As to post-mortem ‘correction’ - I’ve been reading Richard Beck’s blog, and he has made a point that the word ‘education’ captures the essence of what other terms, such as ‘correction’, really mean; by doing this he avoids the negative connotation of coercion and/or violence.
Just food for thought. I really appreciate your contributions to the Forum.
Ditto. And, again I say, ditto.
Please consider the following passage. Do you see a bit of coercion in it? Even a little bit of mild—what some would call “violence”? Both by the good human father described as well as by God?
In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises (“scourges”–NKJV) every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:4-11)
The point was in reference to whether God will force people to repent; some folks are very touchy about the ‘violence’ of God and view coercion as proof of that violence. For them, the concept ‘education’ is a less threatening term than ‘chastise’, and helps them to understand.
Am I unaware of that scriptural passage? Nope.
edit: here is a clip from Beck’s article. I don’t want to misrepresent what he is saying, so I refer you to the full article - it’s not long - to see exactly what he means. Here’s a portion:
*For a lot of Christians salvation is basically the process of posing an ultimatum to the human will: Choose Christ and live or deny Christ and go to hell. Basically, evangelism is a threat with a choice. An ultimatum.
I think this view of salvation is so popular because it has a lot of rhetorical oomph. It fits the contours of contemporary Christian evangelism, revivalism, and altar calls. The evangelist makes a powerful emotional appeal and the audience has to Decide. Come forward and be saved. Or sit there and be lost. The same model works well in a smaller bible study context where you peer over your bible at the poor sap going to hell and make the sales pitch: Accept Jesus or not?
I think most people are fully aware of the problems with this view of salvation. So I don’t want to get into all that here. Suffice it to say I see salvation as less an ultimatum posed to the human will than Incarnational practices aimed at the acquisition of virtue. Moral education if you will. Salvation is about becoming Christ-like.
When framed like this I hope we can see how worries over volitional integrity go away. For example, most parents are trying to shape the character of their children and few of them would consider what they are doing a manifestation of “force.” The same goes for how God treats his children. Our moral biography with God, in this life and the next, is about moral education, training in virtue, and spiritual formation.
Okay, but what about if a person is willfully rebelling? How can God “educate” that person?
Well, the same way all good teachers work with difficult students. You focus on trust, allow natural consequences to unfold, and persuade. Think about this using therapy as an example: How does a therapist get, say, an addict to give up his addiction when the addict is in denial about it? Psychologists routinely assess where a person is in the stages of change tailoring interventions to suit the motivational situation. God could do the same thing.*
Great contributions, everyone!
Night Revan, I’m looking forward to reading yours more in-depth when I have some quiet. It’s noisy here and I’m kind of handicapped when it comes to tuning out stuff going on around me. I did want to say to you in particular that it seems to me we are all on one journey, and that this journey started at birth. So whatever progress your brother made counts. GMac seems to have thought it maybe even counted for more here than in the next leg of the journey. I’ll tag [tag]Alec Forbes[/tag] because he might be better able to expound on that as he’s something of a GMac scholar – more than me, at least.
Technically I’m in off-line mode visiting family, but I do appreciate all the things everyone here has said. Looking forward to interacting more in a few days. Love, Cindy
Cindy said:
You may be right about GMac thinking the first leg of the journey “even counted for more”, but I can’t recall where he might have said that… I’ll keep an eye out for anything of that nature. 
I did find a relevant quote of his regarding our life on earth in our bodies from his Unspoken Sermon, "The God of the Living"ccel.org/ccel/macdonald/unspoken1.xiii.html which (perhaps) implies the opposite
I think it might have been in Donal Grant, Steve? Talking to/about the drug addicted father maybe? But I might not even have the name of the novel right . . . 
That sounds like the right novel, Cindy. I’ll give that part a look because you may be right…
I believe that when any person’s physical body dies, his soul immediately comes into the unveiled presence of God the Son incarnate. In so doing all his sinfulness is eradicated. For the first time in his existence, he thinks and sees clearly. He sees Christ and knows with every particle of his being that he failed at almost all points to be like Him. This is the last judgment. It is not extrinsic or debatable. Rather, he concurs with Christ on the only possible judgment: that he wasted virtually his entire life in sin. But thanks to Christ’s infinite justice and mercy, he becomes as holy as Christ. All that still needs to be done for him is the future resurrection of the body.
Well, Cindy,
I took a look at the relevant portions of Donal Grant where Donal is speaking with the Lord Morven and couldn’t find anything that fits. Perhaps it’s the drug-addled Leopold in Thomas Wingfold, Curate that you’re thinking of? I took a quick look there too, but could’t find anything. I suspect I’ll actually have to be reading the pertinent novel to find it and I don’t doubt for a minute that GMac wrote something emphasizing the importance of this life. Anyway, I’ll be on the lookout for it…
Hi Cindy
Think more Universalist on this. Universal reward as well as Universal punishment. All self-imposed as you become a part of the Godhead that judges you. Only you can give an accurate judgement of yourself after enlightenment.
My apotheosis showed that none are lost so your terminology of the lost does not apply to this Universalist.
You asked how long the chastisement lasts. That depends how hard on your character you have worked here. The more you bring with you when you leave here, the less chastisement you have to do.
You ask if it is good to judge.
Absolutely. How else would you know where you need to improve your character?
Regards
DL
P.S. Asking how long it takes where time is not measured is fruitless.
Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If you are a brethren to Jesus, what makes you think he will judge you. If you can do what he can, and he says you can, why can you not judge yourself? Did Jesus not say and show that he is not our judge? Remember the prostitute he did not judge?
Regards
DL
Thanks, Steve – sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. I’ll have to look harder. BTW, I just finished “A Rough Shaking” and noticed there’s quite a lot there about MacD’s views on “violence” in protecting others, etc – can’t remember which thread you all were talking about this subject on, but I was thinking of you when I read it. Let’s see . . . chapter IX, XXVIII, XLIX, LVI. I think that’s most of it. Hope it’s of interest.
Wonderful, Cindy! I haven’t read that one for quite awhile for some reason… I just read chapter IX and it is indeed a wonderful example of protecting others with force but not returning evil for evil. I’ll be looking at the other chapters later and I’ve really got to read that whole novel again soon. Oh, and I think this was the thread we were discussing this on…[George MacDonald: Views on Politics and Pacifism?)