Mileposts of the Journey of the Lost Sheep

[alecforbes]

That sounds like the right novel, Cindy. I’ll give that part a look because you may be right…

[anon47460357]

I believe that when any person’s physical body dies, his soul immediately comes into the unveiled presence of God the Son incarnate. In so doing all his sinfulness is eradicated. For the first time in his existence, he thinks and sees clearly. He sees Christ and knows with every particle of his being that he failed at almost all points to be like Him. This is the last judgment. It is not extrinsic or debatable. Rather, he concurs with Christ on the only possible judgment: that he wasted virtually his entire life in sin. But thanks to Christ’s infinite justice and mercy, he becomes as holy as Christ. All that still needs to be done for him is the future resurrection of the body.

[alecforbes]

Well, Cindy,

I took a look at the relevant portions of Donal Grant where Donal is speaking with the Lord Morven and couldn’t find anything that fits. Perhaps it’s the drug-addled Leopold in Thomas Wingfold, Curate that you’re thinking of? I took a quick look there too, but could’t find anything. I suspect I’ll actually have to be reading the pertinent novel to find it and I don’t doubt for a minute that GMac wrote something emphasizing the importance of this life. Anyway, I’ll be on the lookout for it…

[Gnostic_Bishop]

What happens to the lost who die while they’re lost? This is something I’ve been wondering about for a while, and it came up recently on another topic. The way I see it, there are several options (I’m not sure how many until I write this) – at least so many options for the universalist; in this topic I’m not really interested in the annihilation and ECT options – they’re pretty cut and dried and only the timing is in any question, imo.

1. The lost, when they die, are dead. They will rise in the Last Day and face judgment. If this is the case I’d like to know why you think so, and what you believe/suspect that judgment might look like.

2. The lost may only think they’re lost. Maybe they’ve been following Jesus (like Emeth in CS Lewis’ “The Last Battle” – or the “righteous pagans” mentioned by Paul in Romans) all their lives without knowing His name. When they see Jesus, if they love Him, what happens? How does that affect their judgment?

3. The lost, when they die, immediately go into “chastisement.” What does this look like? How long does it last? Does it involve literal flames? (Personally I’m against literal flames.) Does it involve remediation (and if so, what might that consist in)? Does it involve punishment, and is that concurrent with remediation, and accomplished by the same means? What would the punishment consist of?

4. How long will the judgment last? Is it the same for everyone? The same for everyone guilty of the same degree of “crime”? Is it set, or does it depend on how stubbornly the person clings to their sin?

5. Finally, is judgment a good thing or a bad thing? Why do you think this?

You don’t need to confine yourself to these suggestions of course. I’d love to hear about anything related that you find to be important. I have some ideas on the topic, but they’re largely ambiguous. I’m hoping ya’ll can help me sort this out.

Thanks! Cindy

Hi Cindy

Think more Universalist on this. Universal reward as well as Universal punishment. All self-imposed as you become a part of the Godhead that judges you. Only you can give an accurate judgement of yourself after enlightenment.

My apotheosis showed that none are lost so your terminology of the lost does not apply to this Universalist.

You asked how long the chastisement lasts. That depends how hard on your character you have worked here. The more you bring with you when you leave here, the less chastisement you have to do.

You ask if it is good to judge.
Absolutely. How else would you know where you need to improve your character?

Regards
DL

P.S. Asking how long it takes where time is not measured is fruitless.

[Gnostic_Bishop]

I think that this post will take some thinking on. Looking at no 1 only to start with. It seems clear to me that we will all meet Jesus in respect of his judgment. On first thoughts this looks like a judgment of our works. Given that we are sinners what does this look like? We read that Jesus associated with sinners of all sorts and that they were seen by Jesus to be entering the Kingdom before the religious leaders of his time. We see his judgments on people like the woman caught in adultery, the tax collectors, the sick, his erring disciples and disbelieving Thomas just to name a few. Does Jesus change? What expectation do we have? It seems clear to me that we are not dealing with salvation as such in this context though for those who do not know him, acknowledgment of his Lordship and salvation will will possibly be the first order of business. When we talk about the lost who do we mean? Those who die in their sins? Is there some correctional possibility in Hades? What about the harrowing of Hades? Is Hades for the believer a paradise of dreams prior to resurrection and is this what Jesus meant when comforting the dying thief on the cross? No condemnation is the clarion call of Romans 8 vs 1. For those in Christ Jesus. How wide eventually is ‘in’? if all means all then all are in. But Jesus clearly says no one comes to the Farther but through or by me. So it is Jesus we do business with. My confidence is very high because God has caused the author of my salvation to be made perfect through sufferings. He knows I am but dust - but then dust touched by the Eternal One is special kind’a dust don’t you think?

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If you are a brethren to Jesus, what makes you think he will judge you. If you can do what he can, and he says you can, why can you not judge yourself? Did Jesus not say and show that he is not our judge? Remember the prostitute he did not judge?

Regards
DL

[Cindy_Skillman]

Thanks, Steve – sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. I’ll have to look harder. BTW, I just finished “A Rough Shaking” and noticed there’s quite a lot there about MacD’s views on “violence” in protecting others, etc – can’t remember which thread you all were talking about this subject on, but I was thinking of you when I read it. Let’s see . . . chapter IX, XXVIII, XLIX, LVI. I think that’s most of it. Hope it’s of interest.

[alecforbes]

Thanks, Steve – sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. I’ll have to look harder. BTW, I just finished “A Rough Shaking” and noticed there’s quite a lot there about MacD’s views on “violence” in protecting others, etc – can’t remember which thread you all were talking about this subject on, but I was thinking of you when I read it. Let’s see . . . chapter IX, XXVIII, XLIX, LVI. I think that’s most of it. Hope it’s of interest.

Wonderful, Cindy! I haven’t read that one for quite awhile for some reason… I just read chapter IX and it is indeed a wonderful example of protecting others with force but not returning evil for evil. I’ll be looking at the other chapters later and I’ve really got to read that whole novel again soon. Oh, and I think this was the thread we were discussing this on…[George MacDonald: Views on Politics and Pacifism?)