Modernised George MacDonald Sermon - Justice

[amy]

I’m terrible at hijacking threads and so I was being really careful to draw the link between the article and George MacDonald.

Rline, it is scary to consider new ideas. It’s like the ground completely shifts from underneath you. What’s difficult is that it’s not just one idea that’s changed, it’s multiple. I try not to expose all my cards at once because it’s just too much for people to take, but when I get into discussions with others I realize right away where I’ve changed and it’s in quite a few places. This almost legitimizes for the other person that I must be a heretic! Like you, I’m still working it out and figuring out more what it is that I don’t believe, that’s not there like I’d thought.

revdrew61, thanks for the additional tips. Looking forward to reading those.

[SLJ]

We will probably get told off for hijacking rline’s thread…

Discussing PSA seems quite relevant to GMac’s sermon, so no objections from me!

Sonia

[SLJ]

Hey revdrew61, I don’t consider it a hijacking! I’m intrigued by the whole thing. I have to confess I feel a little like Neo who comes out of the matrix and wakes up in the real world. For the first time, I’m being confronted with a lot of stuff which I never even thought of. It’s liberating, it’s scary and it’s challenging. But I took the red pill because I wanted to know the truth!

I think many of us here can relate to this picture. Wow! It’s a whole new world. I was blind yet thought I could see. Now I realize I’m just beginning to make out shapes through the dark glass. I’m continuously humbled by it all.

To be made aware that not only is penal substitution not the only theory of atonement, but also that it may be completely wrong, is difficult to accept! I do remember in Bible college, though, having a page which listed out 7 different theories of the atonement. Obviously, they took the penal sub view and so I never even considered the others. I might have a look at my notes now…

It was MacDonald who first taught me to think that there might be a problem with PSA. I had just taken it for granted. It’s as essential to traditional theology as ECT–maybe more so! Yet when you really think about it–as MacDonald reasons in this sermon–it doesn’t make sense to say that “Justice” is satisfied with the punishment of an innocent person.

But it comes down to definitions of justice. Probably many would disagree with MacDonald and insist that justice requires payment, and that sin, like a monetary debt, can be paid by anyone who has the resources and the desire.

Sonia

[amy]

Sonia said…But it comes down to definitions of justice. Probably many would disagree with MacDonald and insist that justice requires payment, and that sin, like a monetary debt, can be paid by anyone who has the resources and the desire.

Sonia, I know you and I agree so much on this issue and you are stating what others believe, giving them the benefit of the doubt that they just have a different understanding. I have to remind myself of this, too, so I understand where they are coming from, that for them PS is such a great thing. George MacDonald, though, is excellent at pointing out how much justice requires things be set right in a real way, not just an applied way. Of course, perhaps many that believe in PS also believe it’s necessary for God to change the heart. I’d say this is God’s main goal. And a God that’s really into justice cares not that just a few are set right, but that all are set right.

[Gem]

Just reading the thread on the way to the article. The “penal” part of PSA was something that I struggled with for a long time. I found Greg Boyd and printed out his “Christus Victor” to study. We were between churches at the time after I had dropped out entirely for 6 months. My 18 yo daughter is friends with this young pastor and his wife (from church camp), so we visited there and they just so happened to be having a potluck with me seated next to the pastor. I was so excited about the idea of Christus Victor, I wanted to share it with the pastor. He responded, “Greg Boyd’s a heretic” and when I asked him about another of my “red flag” questions he said “Mother Theresa’s in hell”.

The first visit was the last at that church. (I’m sad for him though, that he sees God that way)

[AaronK]

Hey all,

It’s great to be modernizing MacDonald’ss works… I became a fan of his by reading his writings as modernised by Micheal R. Phillips. Didn’t know if any of you knew about these, so I figured I’d chime in.

The one book I’ve read the most from is Discovering the Character of God amazon.com/Discovering-Character-God-George-MacDonald/dp/1556610688/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303998314&sr=8-1.

I don’t know if or how any of these correlate to the Unspoken Sermons series - but there is a lot of really good stuff in DTCOG. There’s another that I haven’t read called Knowing the Heart of God. Phillips has also modernized many of MacDonald’s novels which I have also enjoyed.

-AaronK

[rline]

Thanks for pointing these out. I had a look on Amazon using the link you supplied and searched through all of Phillips stuff there. I didn’t find any unspoken sermons, so I’m assuming he probably hasn’t done them. So I thought that maybe I should still try and do them all…

[AaronK]

Rline,

Phillips modernizes and thematically compiles MacDonald’s works in his books. In Discovering the Character of God, he pulled from a couple different books to create a chapter. A chapter would typically start with a Macdonald poem, continue with an essay/sermon and end with an excerpt from one of Macdonald’s fictional works. Instead of just modernizing a single book, Phillips pulled from many works to give a full literary picture of the themes and thoughts of MacDonald.

When I read the original “Justice” recently, it was as though I had read it before in one of Phillips edited versions - Don’t know which one though.

I’ve put some books on order, when they arrive, I’ll try to give a rundown of what Unspoken Sermons he’s modernized and what book they’re in.

-Aaron

[FreedomFighter]

I am happy to finally meet people who are in the same place I am spiritually and reading (and loving) my spiritual mentor, MacDonald!!

I want very much to connect with others who are working on modernizing MacDonald’s unspoken sermons. If doing this work (including partnering with Michael Phillips in the process) is something you are interested in, please email me at jasonbrents@gmail.com.

[alecforbes]

Hi FreedomFighter and welcome!

Nice to meet you and, yes, many of us here also see George MacDonald as our spiritual mentor…

Would love to hear more about yourself if you have a chance to post something in the “Introductions” section.