The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Mt. 25:46

Evangelical Universalism
#102

Wrong answer. You are admitting that you are believing in an act that is not recorded in the bible. How could it be understood if there is not one verse of evidence that mentions it? The mere mention of one person being plucked from their torment, having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life, and entering the city of God would shed so much light on this subject. Where is it?

Ok, show me evidence that merely mentions of one person being plucked from their torment in the lake of fire and having their name added to the Lamb’s book of life.

Nope, Jesus said has “NEVER FORGIVENESS” that means more than just the present, Sherman. Unbelief in this world or the world to come is a sin that is irremediable, Sherman, according to Jesus.

#103

You would have done better to try to “examine” how the other two “misrepresent the redemption plan of God”. It isn’t like I thought you would accept #3. :unamused: I’m glad you think the other two aren’t the redemption plan of God, though, and so misrepresent it when claimed to be such. You can at least agree with us universalists on that, then.

And yes, I realize FU posted up that comment the other day. You have already refused to even recognize that I answered that topic with a massive number of scriptural references, even aside from whether I did so competently. So there is less than no point addressing any answer to him to you as well.

I’ll probably get around to commenting to him (not to you) in that thread sooner or later. Or he can read around and find out for himself what I’ve already extensively written on that topic.

I’ve been working on commenting on Matt Slick’s article for the past few days (instead of, for example, answering FU on something I’ve already done a lot of work on recently), and have just put it up here for anyone actually interested in reading and dialoguing with it.

#104

You’re reading Greek Mythology back into Jewish Theology. In Greek Mythology, the dead were consigned to Hades, which had three parts - Elysium fields (heavenly, where heros went), Asphodel Medows (intermediate, neither good or bad, where most people went), and Tartarus (bottow or under Hades, torturous, where Titans were cast and any humans who especially ticked off Zeus).

Jewish Theology though uses the word Sheol to reference the Grave or Realm of the Dead. The LXX translated the Hebrew Sheol using the word Hades, meaning in general, the realm of the dead. Everyone goes to Sheol, and everyone goes to Hades.

The Jews prior to and during the time of Christ divided Sheol into two realms Ga Eden (Paradise, heaven) and Ga Hinnom (Gehenna, a place of Remedial Punishment for most who go there, who ultimately rose to Ga Eden after being purified). Most Rabbis taught that a person would be consumed, annihilated if they stayed in Gehenna 12 months; though some argued that some people were so evil as to need to stay there indefinitely longer than 12 months.

But, you know, I’ve covered this before with you, documenting the sayings of Rabbis that lived around the time of Christ. If you want to continue to interpret scripture through the filter of Greek Mythology, you’re welcome to; but it results in you misinterpreting scripture to mean something the authors did not intend.

Actually, it says that the richman was in Hades. If Luke had intended to convey the concept of unending torture, he would have used the word Tartaroo. But considering the Greeks did not have a realm that spoke of Remedial Punishment like Ga Hinnom spoke to the Jews, the general term for realm of the dead, Hades, would need to be used because the Greek who Luke wrote to would not understand the concept of Ga Hinnom. It’s very likely that when Jesus originally told this parable, He spoke in Hebrew or Aramaic and actually said Ga Hinnom, which the Jews understood to be Remedial Punishment.

So the Jews who were listening to Jesus understood that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was warning of Remedial Punishment, not unending torture as in Tartaroo. Even more so, it was challenging the Pharisees errant religious concept that riches = righteousness. But if you want to read unending torture into it, that’s your choice.

#105

Incidentally, Tartarus does show up as an actual term in the NT at least once (2 Peter 2:4) as a place or state of punishment for (currently) unphysical spirits.

Fortunately, I have never been committed to (much less expressed) the notion that if an NT author wanted to get across the idea of hopelessly unending torture, he would have used Tartarus instead of hades as a reference. They borrow other words from pagan cultures around them without necessarily borrowing the full concept of those terms, after all. Peter probably only meant to emphasize the concept of gloom or darkness in the punishment (the term itself is a variant name for “imprisonment”), which is how Jude 6 (and 2 Peter itself) restates the same thing–or vice versa–and which fits in well enough with {hades} being a variation of saying “the unseen”. Compare with 2 Peter 2:17 (paralleled Jude 13).

I thought you might want a heads up on this before someone else catches you on it, though. :slight_smile: (I can’t find any other NT text that uses the term offhand, btw.)

#106

Also, Luke does use the term Gehenna once (12:5). It’s a verse we’ve discussed around here before, for some obvious reasons. :slight_smile:

#107

Aaron37,

I just noticed that your previous post on the lake of fire on this thread is actually copied from another thread discussing that specifically - [Redemption from the lake of fire?)

To take that thread, copy the intro post, and use it to derail this thread is rude. If you would like my input on another thread, just ask. If you are not getting enough responses to your threads or posts in general, you might consider being a little, well, a lot, more respectful of others in your posts, and not so disrespectful and demeaning.

I do sincerely hope you have a change in heart and attitude towards others who believe differently than you do. Demeaning and disrespecting others on a regular basis is usually a sign of a heart filled with anger and frustration, even hate. And brother, the anger of man does not lead to the righteousness of God.

Also, as to the correct meaning and interpretation of Mt. 25:46, the passages on the lake of fire are in Revelations, not Matthew. I believe it is best to interpret a passage based on its context. The further something is outside of the context of that passage, the less value it is in helping us understand the meaning of the passage in discussion. To put it forthrightly, Mt.25.46 should be interpreted based on it’s context, not based on the meaning of another passage.

For argument’s sake, let’s say that the Lake of Fire affirms that Jesus fails to save most of humanity and instead condemns most of humanity to endless torture (though of course, I believe this is a completely wrong interpretation); this has nothing to do with interpreting correctly Mt.25.46. I believe that passages of scripture should be interpreted based on what they actually say, and not based on our systematic theology. In fact, one’s Systematic Theology should be built upon the foundation of correctly understanding and interpreting individual passage (Biblical Theology).

So please, if you wish to discuss Mt. 25:46 in this thread, discuss it and not other passages. If you want to discuss other passages or other concepts start your own thread. And if you’d like my input, just ask.

#108

Hi Jason, thanks for the input. Yes, I was aware of Tartaroo being used in 2 Peter as a place of punishment for sinning spirits, them being held in Tartaroo until judgment. My point was it’s never used in scripture in connection with humans; and even the passage in 2 Peter has the connotation that such was not unending even for the sinning spirits. So it is not for humans, and it is not unending. As you noted, it’s a good example of the writers of the NT using terminology available to them to communicate their meaning.

I do believe though that if Jesus or the writers of the NT intended to communicate the concept of endless torture for humans, then speaking and writing in Greek they would have used a word that meant that - Tartaroo. For example, if Matthew had intended to communicate the concept of unending torture, instead of “Transliterating” Ga Hinnom as Gehenna, he’d have simply “Translated” it as Tartaroo - the best Greek word to communicate the concept of unending torture as a judgment from god Zeus. Of course, many scholars believe Matthew originally wrote his Gospel in Hebrew and it was quickly translated to Greek. Either way, to me it’s significant that Tartaroo is not used as a translation of Ga Hinnom.

#109

Yes, Luke does use Gehenna once, why did he not use Gehenna in reference to the rich man and instead used Hades, I don’t know. Either way, neither word, Gehenna or Hades, speaks necessarily of unending torture. And of course, the message of both those passages in Luke should be interpreted based on their literary context.

#110

Do a Scriptural search on the Valley of Ben Hinnom and Topheth. Do not presume to know what it is talking about. From the extractions of what is written concerning this place, you will see that it has NOTHING to do with purging except for the destruction of apostate Israel who killed the prophets and killed their children in the fires to Molech and Baal and the judgment that upon that generation, their house will become desolate. It is also the prophesy of Christ…but that will be explained later.

This is the judgment of Ben Hinnom, Gehenna:

Jeremiah 7
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : "Stand at the gate of the LORD’s house and there proclaim this message:
" 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!” If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your forefathers for ever and ever. But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

'Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”-safe to do all these detestable things? Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD.

‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your fathers. I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your brothers, the people of Ephraim.’

"So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

" 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground, and it will burn and not be quenched.

" ‘This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. From the time your forefathers left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. But they did not listen to me or pay attention. [size=150]They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their forefathers.’
[/size]
"When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. Therefore say to them, 'This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips. Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, [size=150]for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.[/size]

" 'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. [size=150]I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.[/size]

Jeremiah 19
This is what the LORD says: "Go and buy a clay jar from a potter. Take along some of the elders of the people and of the priest and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you, and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah and people of Jerusalem. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Listen! I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. For they have forsaken me and made this a place of foreign gods; they have burned sacrifices in it to gods that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah ever knew, [size=150]and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent. [/size]They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

" ‘In this place I will ruin the plans of Judah and Jerusalem. I will make them fall by the sword before their enemies, at the hands of those who seek their lives, and I will give their carcasses as food to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth. I will devastate this city and make it an object of scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will scoff because of all its wounds. I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their lives.’

2 Kings 23:10-19
He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech. He removed from the entrance to the temple of the LORD the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun. They were in the court near the room of an official named Nathan-Melech. Josiah then burned the chariots dedicated to the sun.

He pulled down the altars the kings of Judah had erected on the roof near the upper room of Ahaz, and the altars Manasseh had built in the two courts of the temple of the LORD. He removed them from there, smashed them to pieces and threw the rubble into the Kidron Valley. The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption—the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon. Josiah smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles and covered the sites with human bones.

Even the altar at Bethel, the high place made by Jeroboam son of Nebat, who had caused Israel to sin—even that altar and high place he demolished. He burned the high place and ground it to powder, and burned the Asherah pole also. Then Josiah looked around, and when he saw the tombs that were there on the hillside, he had the bones removed from them and burned on the altar to defile it, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by the man of God who foretold these things.

[size=150]The king asked, “What is that tombstone I see?”
The men of the city said, “It marks the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and pronounced against the altar of Bethel the very things you have done to it.”

“Leave it alone,” he said. “Don’t let anyone disturb his bones.” So they spared his bones and those of the prophet who had come from Samaria.[/size]

Just as he had done at Bethel, Josiah removed and defiled all the shrines at the high places that the kings of Israel had built in the towns of Samaria that had provoked the LORD to anger. Josiah slaughtered all the priests of those high places on the altars and burned human bones on them. Then he went back to Jerusalem.

Should I continue?

Isaiah 30:15-33
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says:
"In repentance and rest is your salvation,
in quietness and trust is your strength,
but you would have none of it.

You said, ‘No, we will flee on horses.’
Therefore you will flee!
You said, ‘We will ride off on swift horses.’
Therefore your pursuers will be swift!

A thousand will flee
at the threat of one;
at the threat of five
you will all flee away,
till you are left
like a flagstaff on a mountaintop,
like a banner on a hill."

Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you;
he rises to show you compassion.
For the LORD is a God of justice.
Blessed are all who wait for him!

O people of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you. Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” Then you will defile your idols overlaid with silver and your images covered with gold; you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them, “Away with you!”

He will also send you rain for the seed you sow in the ground, and the food that comes from the land will be rich and plentiful. In that day your cattle will graze in broad meadows. The oxen and donkeys that work the soil will eat fodder and mash, spread out with fork and shovel. In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill. The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.

See, the Name of the LORD comes from afar,
with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke;
his lips are full of wrath,
and his tongue is a consuming fire.

His breath is like a rushing torrent,
rising up to the neck.
He shakes the nations in the sieve of destruction;
he places in the jaws of the peoples
a bit that leads them astray.

And you will sing
as on the night you celebrate a holy festival;
your hearts will rejoice
as when people go up with flutes
to the mountain of the LORD,
to the Rock of Israel.

The LORD will cause men to hear his majestic voice
and will make them see his arm coming down
with raging anger and consuming fire,
with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail.

The voice of the LORD will shatter Assyria;
with his scepter he will strike them down.

Every stroke the LORD lays on them
with his punishing rod
will be to the music of tambourines and harps,
as he fights them in battle with the blows of his arm.

Topheth has long been prepared;
it has been made ready for the king.
Its fire pit has been made deep and wide,
with an abundance of fire and wood;
the breath of the LORD,
like a stream of burning sulfur,
sets it ablaze.

Now Read every passage Christ spoke of concerning Gehenna, and you will realize he was talking about this judgment and to whom he was talking to!

#111

Some of these later posts should be redirected to one of the threads already on Gehenna, btw.

#112

Hi Craig, let’s do move this discussion to the thread on Gehenna.

And btw, I do not “presume to know what it is talking about”; rather, based on my research I’ve come to believe that when Jesus speaks of Gehenna He is speaking of eternal remedial judgment/punishment/discipline. It’s Remedial in that it is meant to produce a positive change in us. And it is Eternal in that it is from God and transcends time; such judgment effects us in this life and the life to come. When we encounter the judment of the Lord, it burns the hell out of us (whether in this life or in judgment to come).

I’ve encountered the remedial judgment of God multiple times in my life; and it was always terrible resulting in a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth for me, but it was good for me! I can only imagine how terrible it will be when I stand in the unveiled presence of Truth! But I also know (by the Word and by Experience) that His judgment is rooted in His love; and this wonderfully comforts me.

I’ll see if I can copy your post and respond to it in the thread on Gehenna, later. Or maybe you could copy it there.

Thanks for the input.
Sherman

#113

All due respect, Sherman, God does not judge his children with remedial judgment ( whatever that means) he disciplines them. There is a huge difference between loving discipline and judgment, sir. Hebrews 12:5-12 explains how God deals with his children. Your theology is all over the place, it is hard to believe you graduated from ORU. Sheesh. Lord have mercy.

#114

And yet Isaiah 26:9 says explicitly…

“…When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.”

How odd :laughing:

#115

I bet I know what verse Sherman has in mind: 1Pt 4.17

“For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?”

Yeah, horrabul edjecashun ya got thur at ORU Sunny.

Tom

#116

Hello Sherman, you have no evidence of such so you only have an presumption on which you built your premise. Start with what Scripture SAYS about Gehenna and then build your belief from there. There is no remedial understanding of Topheth, or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, anywhere written in the Scriptures. Gehenna has been and always been and served as a symbol of judgment against Jerusalem and Judah because of their sin, a prophesy of one will come to redeem them, Jesus Christ.

#117

Before you declare that I have no evidence supporting my beliefs, you might want to inquire as to what evidence I have. Of course, if you do not want to consider why I’ve come to believe as I do, then no need to check it out. I present the evidence in the thread on Gehenna where I copied your post for further discussion.
[May I have feedback on my CU drafts?)

Blessings,
Sherman

#118

Already read it, wouldn’t have replied otherwise. Hearsay is not evidence and what the Pharisee’s believed after the Temple was destroyed has no relevance on their understanding of Gehenna because they still didn’t accept Jesus as the Redeemer.

As I said earlier, read all references to Gehenna in the OT and there is no understanding that it is ‘purgatory’. It is a symbol of judgment against Jerusalem and Judah that their plans will not succeed and in 70 AD the Gehenna went out, because that judgment had been fulfilled.

#119

Maybe you haven’t experienced the judgment of the Lord, but I have and it was part of loving discipline. The first step in repentance is embracing the truth about your sin. This is what judgment does. When God as a loving Father steps in and says, “You are like that lazy and wicked servant”, His word of judgment reveals to you your wickedness. And btw, Hebrews 12:4-11 is an awesome passage referring to the remedial judgment and even punishment of the Lord. When God steps in and rebukes you, it’s terrible, but it works tremendous good in you. This is the judgment of the Lord, aionian kolasis, Mt.25.46. In Mt.25.46, Jesus is warning of remedial judgment/punishment from the Lord that if we are wise, we’ll embrace even in this life; but if we are foolish, we’ll waist this life and not submit ourselves to the judgment of the Lord until we face Him in all of His Glory.

It’s sad that judgment in English does not inherently carry the connotation of being remedial. When we think of judgment, typically we think of nothing positive about it; but Judgment is a necessary part of discipline. A father judges, pronounces that his child’s actions, attitudes, or sinful patterns of life or thinking are wrong, are evil. He does whatever it takes to help his child see the truth of how bad they are acting and helps them to repent. This is Remedial Judgment. If you don’t know what a word or phrase means, look it up. Remedial = intended as a remedy. Judgment = a formal declaration from an authoritative source.

And btw, if memory serves me correctly, I and others have noted before that there really is no need to be condescending or disrespectful of me or others in your posts. People who resort to such reveal that either their position is weak and they feel threatened by what others are sharing, or their character is immature and they can’t help but attack others. Usually it reveals both that the person is not able to support their beliefs adequately and that their character is immature. Such condescending and disrespectful words certainly do not encourage the person you are addressing to seriously consider what you write. In other words, if you want to be taken seriously, share what you believe and why you believe it respectfully and with grace.

As to me and ORU, actually I transferred to Regent University before graduating ORU, ultimately graduating from Regent. I’d love to go back and work on a PHD in Renewal Theology, but the needs of my family will not allow such at this time. Both are excellent schools though, I believe. I especially appreciate the way the professors helped students from various denominations to learn how to discuss differing beliefs respectfully, staying on point and not devolving into personal attacks. Brothers and sisters in Christ studied, worshiped, and even lived together even though they have very significant beliefs. Our common faith in Christ compelled us to respect one another, even in the middle of passionate disagreement on theology.

#120

Hi Tom, actually I wasn’t thinking of 1 Pet.4.17; rather I was thinking of the meaning of Kolasis in Mt.25.46 which is translated as either punishment or judgment, but punishment/judgment that is remedial.

#121

When you speak of “Hearsay”, I assume that you are speaking of the various quotes recorded in the Mishnah and Talmud of the sayings of Rabbis Shammai and Hillel, the President and Head of the Sanhedrin just prior to the time of Christ. What they believed and taught predates the time of Christ though it continues to be quoted and discussed after the destruction of the Temple. The Mishnah and the Talmud are the written “Oral Traditions” of the Pharisees. They were passed down from Rabbi to student for generations and were only written down in outline form in the Mishnah around 200 A.D. because of the intense Roman persecution focused especially on killing Jewish Rabbis. Because they were afraid of loosing the Oral Traditions, they recorded them in the Mishnah, and later expaned upon them in both the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds. Anyhow, I believe they accurately convey the beliefs of the Pharisees during the time of Christ. You’re welcome to disregard them of course and on this we will just continue to disagree.

You are correct in that in the OT Gehenna was not used as a metaphor of personal judgment. But in the literary context of Jesus’ use of Gehenna in the Gospels, Jesus is not speaking about the destruction of Jerusalem or the Judgment of God against the Jewish people. He is warning of individual personal judgment. Metaphors can be used to illustrate various concepts. In both of these cases, Gehenna is a metaphor of judgment; the literary context determines what is being judged.