The Evangelical Universalist Forum

My 'argument' to a 'burning in hell' believing brother.

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#2

Hi Catherine

It isn’t any of us who will persuade you of this truth - for only the Spirit can do that. But I guess we can do our human best to point you in the right direction! :smiley:

If you are committed to investigating whether or not UR is true (which I kind of sense that you are), there are plenty of resources and articles available to you that will help. *The Second Death and the Restitution of All Things *by Andrew Jukes is one of the all time classics in this regard (you can find it on the net easily). However, that is a lot of reading (100+ pages). If you want something a bit more succinct, you could try chapter five of our very own Dr Robin Parry’s The Evangelical Universalist (written under the pseudonym Gregory MacDonald). This is one of the best and most scriptural modern defences of UR, and essential reading if you wish to understand the scriptural basis for UR.

But before you even do any of this reading, I would ask you to bear in mind that the Book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature - overtly symbolic, and *notoriously *difficult to exegete and understand. The scriptural argument in favour of UR (and against ECT and annihilation) is complex, and is built up from a holistic examination of the whole Biblical meta-narrative. Of course, there are specific verses which, taken at face value, seem to teach either ECT or annihilation. But there are just as many which point the other way, towards UR. The point is that we cannot arbitrate on the issue purely by ‘prooftexting’ - and certainly not be prooftexting from difficult and highly symbolic books such as Revelation.

But I would just give you one piece of plain scriptural ‘advice’, if I may. Jesus did not come to save us from “remaining dead”, nor from a “fate worse than death”. Matthew 1:21 spells it out for us, plain as day:

"She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” (my emphasis)

Once you see the truth of this; once you realise that it never has been about being saved from death or hell or the consequence of sin, but from sin itself - UR is just around the corner. Personally I have no doubt that you will turn that corner, in your and in the Spirit’s own good time. :slight_smile:

All the best

Johnny

#3

Hi Johnny,

thanks for your kind reply. :smiley: I have the ‘Evangelical Universalist’. I read it about two years ago, so maybe I will re-read it once I’ve read Miller’s book. I’ll certainly check out chapter five.

I would be so happy to belive that UR is true, as I can’t imagine any ‘good’ news better than that. If it is true, I need the Holy Spirit to confirm it (as you rightly point out). I want to belive it, so why doesn’t the Holy Spirit confirm it? Hmm, strange. :confused:

#4

Hi Catherine

He will, I’m sure, He will. In His time. :slight_smile:

Why did the Holy Spirit take so long to convict me of the truth of Christianity?

Why doesn’t He convict *everybody *of that truth, in this life at least? (That’s an EU speaking!)

Mysteries we will never penetrate, this side of the veil.

All the best

Johnny

#5

Hi Catherine,

If not for the many precious promises in scripture that to me affirm UR, I too would believe in annihilation. Words like perish, death, destruction imply, if anything, annihilation, not ECT. What moves me to believe in UR?

  1. The scriptures that seem to affirm such like Col. 1:20, Rom. 5:18, John 12:46, Phil. 2:9-10, etc.
  2. Scriptures that seem to affirm that punishment is remedial like in 1 Cor. where Paul turns a brother over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit might be saved. Even Jonah who died and from sheol in torment cried out to God who saved him and worked in him repentance.
  3. The passages on judgment that seem to affirm that what is burnt up is our evil or useless works. And the fire of God being used to purify in Isaiah’s vision in chap. 6. etc.
  4. And passages like 1 Pet. 3:18-4:6 that affirm salvation after death of the spirits in prison, and Paul affirming baptism for the dead in 1 Cor. 15, etc.

Concerning Revelation’s lake of fire, there are several things that about it that inspire me to believe it to is remedial.

  1. It is in the presence of the Lamb and the Angels, Rev. 14.10, which speaks to me of the revelation of the Atonement and the Benevolent provision of God. These revelations of the love, forgiveness, mercy, goodness of God purges us from evil in this life, thus how much more in the life to come!
  2. Torment, basinizo, is a word that alludes to the purification of metals, the testing of metals in the fire of purification.
  3. Brimstone, theion, means divine (theo) fire. It referred to sulfur which was burnt as insense for both spiritual purification, to ward off evil, and physical healing. And hot sulfur springs were widely sought for their healing properties. Even today sulfur is the foundational element of many medicines. And of course, Isaiah, when he encountered the Lord, had a coal (brimstone?) from the altar placed to his lips which purified him. Thayer’s Lexicon, Friberg’s Analytical Lexicon, and Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon all agree that THEION is related to purification and healing. And Liddell and Scott notes that the verb THEIOO actually means “to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god.”
  4. God is a consuming fire, and in Isa. 30, the breath of the Lord is described as a stream of burning sulfur, which was the source of fire in Topheth (Hinnom Valley, Gehenna).

Also, concerning Revelation, it is apocryphal literature which is widely interpreted. It is interpreted from 4 significantly different perspectives. 1) Preterists believe it speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and/or Rome. 2) Historicists see in Revelation the rise and fall of nations throughout time. 3) Spiritualists see in it the ongoing battle of good and evil in each of us and in our cultures. And 4) Futurists interpret most of the book as speaking of end-time events. Of the 4 views I think the Preterist view has the most solid support, having the hindsight of history. And then the Spiritualist view is very inspirational. And I can see the Historical view also, in the rise and fall of nations. And to me the Futurist view is the most open of them them all to a wide range of interpretations; so to me it is the least stable. Thus I don’t use Revelation as a support for systematic doctrine. Being it is apocryphal style literature, I think it is written primarily to inspire, not to establish doctrine.

The short of it is, in Revelation’s lake of fire, I see a revelation of the fiery judgment of God that consumes evil; it burns the hell out of us! I don’t think it supports either ECT or annihilation. Revelation is more like a painting, or even a movie like the Matrix or Lord of the Rings, more than it is technical manual on doctrine. It’s meant to inspire like a painting, and thus it can say different things to different people.

#6

Someone onsite, although I don’t recall where, has also indicated where the Lake of Fire corresponds to the basin of purification before the mercy-seat of God in the Temple. I also recall seeing this in one of the recent self-published universalism books (Hope Beyond Hell perhaps?–it wasn’t a long book) although I don’t recall specifically where.

Back around Christmas last year, Caroleem found an argument by Bert Gary which involves this idea (I know Redhotmagma is or was a proponent of it, too). I don’t recall the details but apparently I was impressed by it.

bertgary.blogspot.com/2009/01/la … fined.html

#7

It is also possible that the lake of fire was a reference to the Dead Sea. The Ash remains of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the other 3 cities destroyed by fire and brimstone are on the West shore of the Dead Sea. Asphault bubbles from underneath the Dead Sea. And there are vast pockets of gas under the Dead Sea. And the Greek text actually says “the lake of the fire and the brimstone.” The Dead Sea is located on the Jordan Rift valley, making it a geologically active area. Ancient maps of the area actually have smoke and fire on and around the Dead Sea.

So it is very possible that what John saw was not a lake of lava, but the Dead Sea. Unfortunately he doesn’t describe what he saw, only named it.

#8

Thanks for your feedback Sherman and Jason. :smiley:

The two ‘clinchers’ for me, that affirm annihilation of the wicked, are:

  1. When Jesus warns about the fires of Gehenna, which he did quite a lot, He never offers any hope that those who are thrown in to this fire, ever come out purified. The ‘imagery’ used to drive home the utter destruction of those thrown in, is surely affirming the finality of their destruction e.g ‘worms that don’t die’. If only Jesus even just once said ‘and after the fire has done it’s purifying, and perged all the evil out of, you will then be restored to Me etc etc’. He never speaks like this.

  2. The verses in Revelation that talk about the lake of fire also don’t offer any references to anyone coming out of the lake. There is no mention of a ‘third resurrection’ after the second death which is the lake of fire.

I can’t get passed these ‘blocks’ and so I remain convinced of annihilation.

#9

This is particularly interesting to me Catherine given that I was raised in an annihilationist tradition. ECT hell was never “in play” in my thinking. So it’s come as a very big surprise – but a very logical one as well however – to find so many here who’ve found annihilation to be a great improvement over what they formerly believed; ECT hell. Having been comfortable with annihilation’s compatibility with the God of the bible for many many years myself, I certainly have great sympathy with your thinking. It remains, quite obviously it seems, a great improvement over ECT hell.

The seeds of my eventual embrace of Universal Reconciliation were, best I can now tell, most likely sown as I wrestled with the idea of Penal Substitution. In coming to reject a view that has God effected into doing something He otherwise was not inclined to do (forgive because the death of His own Son had paid the “penalty”) I saw much more clearly the view of a God who’s very essence and attitude was, and has been from the start, forgiveness. The Cross reflects then who He actually is; not who He needs to be transformed into by Christ’s death. This of course paves the way for the dawning realization that the entire creation has been the object of this redemptive mission He’s embarked upon.

Hard of course to retread each and every step in my journey to UR, but eventually I had the two theories square off against each other.

Thus, which theory better anticipates
Love never failing…
God eventually (through Christ) becoming all in all…
The condition of nothing being able to separate us (see Romans 8) from the Love of God…
The completion (“I have finished the work…” John 19) of Christ’s own mission - (His own words) - “to seek and save the lost”
The condition of tears being no more… and so on and on…

The number of simple, declarative statements of Jesus ultimate and complete success, really began to mount up for me. Behold, the Lamb which TAKES away the sin of the world! And so on.

Further, I began to understand just how fragile is the reed of human freedom upon which annihilation actually must ride. What is called “freedom” and allows (maybe even compels) God to facilitate our annihilation (is God active, or passive in this act? we used to debate…) is actually closer to illusion and bondage; and thus is fair game for God to resist and overcome.

And, I began to wonder what annihilation actually solves: best I could tell, it actually solves nothing more than disposal of the bodies of the rebels. By burning no less… Which, I had to admit, is little better than the actions of any dictator or tyrant (like, say, Nebuchadnezzar…) whose punishment for failure to worship was not unlike my annihilation version.

But that’s just me, and my journey. Your’s will necessarily be different from mine.

So it’s a real blessing that you shared this here with us!!

Thank you for this…

Bobx3

#10

Hi there, Catherine,

I’m curious how you jibe the annihilation you describe with the description of the New Jerusalem (post Lake of Fire) at the end of Revelation.

The new city does not appear until after the annihilation you describe in the Lake of Fire, yet there are all sorts of indications that people who were thrown into the LOF are still around. For example, of the kings of the Earth who had been killed in their war against the Lord a few chapters earlier, it is said they will bring their glory into that city? The nations, too? And what of the leaves of the tree of life that are for healing the nations? Who is still around in need of healing at this point? There’s more, but you get the picture.

I’d be interested in your thoughts!

Andy

#11

That’s beautifully said, Bob.

Even more, some of that illusion is from God Himself! Romans 11:32 comes to mind. “For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.”

Andy

#12

TotalVictory, your reply really strikes a chord with me. Everything you say makes complete sense. UR makes the most sense to me, for the reasons you mention. I’m just not sure that the Bible is teaching UR. It does seem to be implied in some verses, but then annihilation seems to be implied in other places. Do I go with my inner instincts that say UR must be true and the only outcome that makes any sense to anything? I dare to hope UR could be true, but as yet do not feel a real ‘burning’, of knowing that it really is true. I was chatting to my daughter the other day (she is fully convinced of UR) and she said ‘why can’t God take as long as is needed to ensure ALL come to see His love and to submit to God etc etc. Surely eventually, given enough time, everyone would ‘see’ the right way?’’ I answered that it certainly seemed logical to suppose that would be the case. It does seem illogical that someone born with a faulty body and brain, into a warped homelife and environment, who then grows up to be a serial criminal, dies at the age of forty and is subsequently resurrected briefly, thrown into the lake of fire and is ‘wiped’ out of existence, could not be given as much time as is necessary, to undo the (unasked for) damage etc. I then wonder that maybe God can see that some people even with ‘perfection’, would not submit to Him, and so removing them from His creation would seem to make sense. I don’t really have a problem with the lake of fire being literal, as the fire that rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah was real and destroyed those people. I would image it’s a very quick ending.

The arguments for UR (which you listed some of them) are like music to my ears but why doesn’t Jesus or Paul etc speak these things in clear unambiguous language? The judgmental verses that speak of unending punishment and future fiery punishment, seem to far outweigh the ‘UR’ verses. :frowning:

#13

Hi Andy, this point was raised by the guy I did the essay for. He mentioned the ‘dogs’ etc outside the City, implying that they are still conscious and alive (in the Lake of Fire). So I have been wondering about this and thank you for bringing it to my attention as well. I’ve just read Rev 21 and 22 and the verses in question are Rev 21: 8 and 24-27 and Rev 22: 2, 14,15. If we read Rev 21: 6-8 first, Jesus seems to be contrasting the fate of two groups of people. The second group don’t seem to be in line to receive what the first group (the victorious) are going to get (living water, becoming God’s children). They are consigned to the lake of fire, with no mention of another resurrection ie a third resurrection?? Verses 24-27 could be referring to those of the second resurrection whose names are found in the book of life, and so they get a chance to come into the city and receive the leaves of healing etc (Rev 22:2) . I think Rev 22:15 could be meant in light of the second resurrection. Those who are not written in the book of life are outside the City awaiting being thrown into the Lake of Fire. I see no problem with this explanation. I may have missed something though, so would welcome your correction. :wink:

#14

Oh yes Catherine; I very much respect the struggle. My own went on for several years. However, (and this sense has only grown) I became unable to see what God accomplishes by annihilation. His mission, “to seek and save the lost” is spoken of in terms of complete success – or “TotalVictory”. Nowhere can I find even a hint of failure; and certainly any lost should constitute “failure” of His self proclaimed mission.

To this day, the best summary statement of the inner debate which you are experiencing, is by G. MacDonald

[How Universalism Has Impacted my Life)

In conclusion, let me ask you to hold in your mind traditional Christian visions of the future, in which many, perhaps the majority of humanity, are excluded from salvation forever. Alongside that hold the universalist vision, in which God achieves his loving purpose of redeeming the whole creation. Which vision has the strongest view of divine love? Which story has the most powerful narrative of God’s victory over evil? Which picture lifts the atoning efficacy of the cross of Christ to the greatest heights? Which perspective best emphasizes the triumph of grace over sin? Which view most inspires worship and love of God bringing him honor and glory? Which has the most satisfactory understanding of divine wrath? Which narrative inspires hope in the human spirit? To my mind the answer to all these questions is clear, and that is why I am a Christian universalist.

Also, a brief observation about Fire. It began to seem odd to me that everyone is said to experience this Fire. We are all exposed to it. Yet it appears then that some are healed/saved/reconciled by this fire (God Himself is spoken of as Fire as well…) while some are destroyed/annihilated/tortured by it. Same Fire, different effects. Depending on… well it’d have to be depending on ME it seems!!!

Except that makes zero sense to the bible; my salvation is not due to or because of something special about ME! That is entirely antithetical to the bible. Thus the different language used seems to be more about how the Fire is experienced, not in the ultimate effects of the Fire. Same idea as in Romans 11:22 I think…

Bobx3

#15

Bob, wow! You certainly know how to get to the heart of the matter. I agree whole heartedly with your reply. I just hope it’s true. My view of the lost being saved, was that it’s only the lost ‘elect’ that are ‘found’ (only the ones the Father draws to the Son). Only these ones are the ‘children of God’ who are revealed. If everyone was going to be ‘found’ then why is there any mention of a revealing of the sons of God (Rom 8:19), ie ‘the lucky ones’? I’ll ponder what you are saying. :wink:

#16

Hi again, Catherine,

I’ve been a little occupied off the forum, so I apologize for the late reply.

I think I understand what your saying. But I have a couple of issues. Paul says that when believers are raised from the dead, we will be raised free from our fleshly bodies and in a state where we are “incorruptible.” So, I’m again left to wonder who it might be that will be in need of healing? Certainly not resurrected believers. And what about those kings of the earth bringing their glory into the city? The last we heard from the kings of the earth in John’s vision, they were slain in their rebellion against Jesus, weren’t they? Would not those rebellious kings have had their part in the LOF?

Not trying to trick you or anything. Just getting at a larger point. :wink: My own view is that the ministry of reconciliation that we’ve been called to is one that won’t end in this age or realm but will continue until all those still in bondage to sin are brought back into right relationship with God through Christ.

Humor me for a moment. Remember that curious statement from Jesus that His followers would do even greater miracles than He did in His ministry on earth? When you consider everything that Jesus did, it was always hard for me to fathom how that could be possible. Wow… greater miracles than Jesus? Really? I mean, he re-animated a dead man who’d already begun to decompose, for gosh sakes! And even those who hated Him could not dispute a single miraculous thing He did! But one day when I was reading that passage about the leaves that were for healing, it occurred to me that… under the power and authority and direction of our risen Lord Jesus Himself… bringing all those suffering people back into right relationship, healing them with the tree of life and bringing them in to partake of the Living Water that is our Lord? Now THAT would fit the bill! THAT would be the miracle to trump ALL miracles!

Of course, I can’t prove that to you. But it at least gives you an idea of where I’m coming from. :wink:

Love in Christ to you,

Andy

#17

Hi Andy, thanks for coming back to me. I’ve always found ‘the leaves for healing’ to be curious. I thought Jesus’ death accomplished healing etc, and so it’s a strange concept, although not entirely surprising, as the tree of life features right at the beginning of man’s history!! Those who benefit from these ‘leaves’ (I’m sure they’re not necessarily literal leaves??) must be those who take part in the second resurrection (which would include those destroyed when Christ returns prior to the 1000 years e.g kings of the earth). That resurrection, unlike the first, does not raise you ‘immortal’ otherwise the lake of fire would have no power over you ie the second death. It follows that this is a ‘mortal’ resurrection of ‘everyone else’ who ever lived who wasn’t ‘in Christ’. Many of these ones are judged and cast into the lake of fire and many who are judged, it would seem are permitted to ‘enter’ the New Jerusalem which has come down from heaven by now, to be healed by these leaves (and at some point it is assumed, put on immortality like the first bunch).

Here’s a quick overview of what I believe will happen:

When Jesus returns to take his ‘elect’ to the house He has been preparing for them (the New Jerusalem presently in heaven), those who are dead in Christ are brought back to life and those of us still alive meet these guys in the air with Jesus and are transported to the New Jerusalem, and all that is left on the earth at this point is destroyed- totally- by fire( hence the references to ‘like in the days of Noah’- sudden destruction comes upon them). The earth is void for a 1000 years (maybe the fire burns that long??) and because Satan has no one to ‘tempt’ he is in a state of restraint. After the thousand years, the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, the rest of the dead are brought back to life (as mortals). Satan now has people to tempt again, and he gives it one last go at trying to get people to reject God and follow him. Many who have been resurrected try to enter the New Jerusalem by force and are destroyed (thrown into the Lake of fire). I’m assuming this is part of the great white throne judgment - some go off into the Lake of fire, and some are allowed to go into the New Jerusalem.

I agree with you that the greatest miracle would be if those thrown into the Lake of fire were able to ‘come out again’ and go on to be healed by the leaves etc. I just don’t see this indicated in the text. I hope you’re right though. :smiley:

#18

Hope is a great thing, Catherine! :sunglasses:

Peace and blessings to you,

Andy

#19

It sure is Andy. :smiley:

Just an update on my debate with this ‘fires of hell’ believing brother. I’ve done a further ‘argument’ (the long version) which I sent nearly two weeks ago, and I’m still waiting on him coming back to me. He seems to have lost steam- maybe he’s worried I’m on to something…). But there is a really encouraging side development. Unbeknownst to me at the time that this brother gave his ‘sermon’ and I approached him afterwards and told him he was wrong about eternal conscious torment, another brother at my church did the same thing. :smiley: He is in our church band (we both play guitar). Martin (the hell fire believing brother) forwarded my original email with my argument above, to this other brother Neal. The reason Neal hadn’t said anything was that he assumed ‘Catherine’ of the email, was the other Catherine in our church band, (the intelligent medical doctor no less) and so we strummed away oblivious to each other’s stances on this important topic (the other Catherine has missed a few practices due to work but he caught up with her eventually and realised she hadn’t sent the email). He collared me at our last practice and looked truly surprised to know I was the sender of the email and that I believed these things, as he was beginning to think E.C.T was wrong too. I sent him my full version of the above argument (which Martin didn’t send on to him ??), which includes lots more scriptures etc. When I saw Neal at Church at the weekend, he was keen to tell me that he was convinced that eternal conscious torment was not true and that my argument was very clear and Bible based. Let’s hope Martin comes to see this too.

And one last thing…I even mentioned UR at our last band practice, as we all started talking about various doctrines and having just rehearsed the song ‘Come, now is the time to Worship’, which has the lines ‘one day every tongue will confess you are God, one day every knee will bow…’ our flutist looking suspicious said: ‘I’m not sure about that song- what do those lines mean?’ I clarified it was the aforementioned ones, and replied 'maybe it means that one day ‘EVERYONE’ who has ever lived will come to know God and be saved? I expected looks of shock and bewilderment, but they all seemed to take it in their stride… :ugeek: (Hey! Maybe she thinks Brian Doerksen wrote those lines?? I’d better check that out next time…)

#20

Hi again Catherine,

It’s very cool you play guitar in your church band. I pick a little myself, though only for my own relaxation. :sunglasses:

I’ve always found it interesting that so very many of the hymns we love so much in the English-speaking world are almost always focused… like a laser beam… on the most hopeful places in our hearts and with the grandest possible view of God’s triumphant love for humankind. I don’t know it, but that song you mention seems like just such a one. And it’s particularly so with the ones we sing at Christmas. Check out the entirety of “O Holy Night,” which I am quite certain was written by a believer in the ultimate reconciliation of all. :wink:

As for the friend you are dialoguing with, thanks for the update! Dividing and discussing and pondering the scriptures is never a waste of anyone’s time!

All the best to you,

Andy

EDITED TO ADD THESE LYRICS FROM ‘O HOLY NIGHT’

Those words always bring a happy tear to me. :smiley:

#21

Lovely words Andy. :smiley:

As I listen to hymns or worship songs, it strikes me how many of them seem to be espousing UR. :wink: