The minister who has been meeting up with me to help me work through EU. Given the last 2 talks are* The End: Hell* & The End: Heaven, I’m guessing it will be a case of “in the end, you end up in either Hell or Heaven”, however, given he has just finished reading TEU, maybe he’ll surprise me 
Alex, I hope you aren’t holding your breath. 
Sounds like a neat opportunity.
I’m going to the Hell talk tonight. Please pray that it goes well.
Praying, Alex! I’m looking forward to your report!
Sonia
Looking forward to hearing about it too, Alex. Amy
Try to control your laughter 
Just kidding… will be keeping you in my prayers
, I"]Evening introduction
Core of Christianity is about Jesus. God is completely in control and lavishly loves us. The Cross was the beginning of the End. New world already dawned.
Bible reading for talk
Talk begins:
Matt claims that Jesus is the center of power. Hell isn’t a rival kingdom. The end isn’t dualism. Christianity is sometimes seen as a crutch, just wishful thinking. Hell shouldn’t be something anyone wishes for! We believe in it only because Jesus speaks of it in the Bible. Therefore, we dare not speak about. So why do we avoid talking about Hell? We naturally want to remove it.
John is painting the gruesome end to which God is bring evil. It’s hard to talk about it because it’s so vivid and full-on. Too brutal to contemplate. Default is to disbelieve it. Compassion kicks in for those we love. How can it be fair? Can God really be that angry at sin? It’s symbolism, but that just means it will be a lot worse then the imagery (Tim Keller). How can we live with it, daily meeting people going to hell? We just want to not think about it. However, we don’t want to live in denial, but in reality. Jesus had plenty to say on Hell.
The heart of the story isn’t about Hell, it’s about Jesus’ Judgement. This life determines our location in the next. And it’s decisive & permanent. Some people see this passage as a proof for inclusivism, but that’s weak because Matt is pessimistic about anyone being good enough. Anyway, it’s about Jesus & how people treat and care for His brothers - His people. Rom 2:16 Tells us there will be a day when God will Judge. Matt 25:46 (last sentence) shows it’s decisive, it’s final. Like bidding on someone, once the hammer goes down, that’s it. I’m aware that some take issue with the translation of eternal and see it as the punishment of the ages. So that it’s holding out hope that perhaps you can get out of hell and make it into heaven anyway. To be honest it’s a pretty thin argument. Eternal is actually what that word means most of the time in the New Testament. It’s used quite a bit in connection with the eternal God and stuff like that. If Jesus had wanted to leave any impression that the door was left open, that the door was just left ajar, the door was close but unlocked; He could’ve just used another word or just left that word out. But it’s a thin argument for another reason, if there’s one thing that is clear about the age to come (and this is right across the Bible), when God brings His kingdom, it will be permanent, it is ushered in by decisive judgement, and at that point everything will reach it’s final equilibrium.
Your life today really matters, it’s really significant. Your life heads for a forever that heads out to the horizon. Do you take it seriously.
Jesus answering the question that we often ask. “Where is this awesome kingdom you speak of? When I look around I don’t see it, but instead I see compromise and sin.” Jesus’ will end the compromise. Centre your life on Jesus as the mess will be short lived. The “weeping and gnashing of teeth” in this parable, shows us the deepest horror and permanent exclusion will be conscious. Jesus is in control not the devil. What do we do with this? Here we are stirred to compassion aren’t we? Tears at the thought of it. We teeter on the edge of disengagement because it become too grueling. How can this be just? How can it be fair? Why does it have to go on forever? How can anyone in heaven cope with knowing that there are people in hell? How is that bearable, let alone bliss?
The heart of this story is the tragedy at the death of an innocent and the wretched end for those who have that son’s blood on their hands. Here is a word against the religious, self assured and confident: Time and again you’ve blown it already. God has extended kindness, chances and mercy but you have sealed your wretched fate. The father in the parable trying to find even a kernel of good in the hearts of those tenants. We begin to see Hell as the justice of God to the people resolved to oppose Him, and spurned Him. We feel we haven’t done anything bad enough to deserve Hell, but if we compare ourselves to Jesus, we start to realise we do. We’re talking about an established pattern of life. My skin crawls at the permanence of Hell but just occasionally in life a get a window, I honestly wonder why on earth hasn’t God done something permanent about me already? I’m not asking you to own everyone else’s eternity, I want you to own yours. When I’ve been so sinful and look at how wonderful and good Jesus is, I start to understand hell. At those moments I can see that it’s fair for me.
Jesus didn’t come to serve but to serve, to give His life as a ransom for many. Matt 27:22-54 Hell of the Cross. Who is Hell for? It’s for those whom God’s anger burns against. Hell is God’s decisive judgement. Were it not for Christ’s death in our place, under His father’s wrath and anger, and exclusion, you and I would’ve face that wretched end. Which way will you turn, you’re at a T junction in life? Toward Him or away?I only accidentally scoffed once when he said “eternal” being “in the age to come” was a “thin argument” 
I was very disappointed as they often have a question time after the talk, but the minister decided not to. I didn’t mind too much that I didn’t get a chance to ask a question but would’ve been really interested to hear what other people’s questions were. Unfortunately, it was already way past my bed time so I couldn’t hang around to discuss anything.
As you can see, the above is mainly Calvinism, mixed with compassion for those going to hell. I’ll make a few other comments/rebuttals tomorrow if I get a chance.
Wow Alex, feel like I was right there with you! I had to chuckle at the part, “and stuff like that.” Maybe those weren’t the original words? I didn’t see the Calvinism as much.
Seems what we mostly disagree on is why God is angry, what this means, and what justice is. I think the bible makes such a wonderful case for justice not leaving people in their sin, but actually restoring them.
It is important what we do now in terms of being healed so no wonder the bible places a big emphasis on it. The natural result, however, of believing the way they do is the focus often becomes will I be one of the “good” ones to choose rightly in this ultimate task of life. It’s all about will I get it right. If life is all about us, the focus is us getting it right, it leaves little room for the point of this life being that it’s God’s grace that results in our coming to be right, or so I’m thinking. Maybe this life isn’t all about a test to prove whether we can pass, but God proving to us just how merciful he is as a father that is faithful to give kindness or sternness, whichever is needed?
I hope you’ll get to ask your question(s) and am interested too to hear the questions others will ask. Cheers! 
Where do you start? I think I’d be asking the speaker two questions. Do you believe God so loved the world that he gave us his Son? Then I’d ask if he believes in irresistible grace.
No although fairly close I believe. He likes to use the phrase “and the like”, so that’s probably what he said. I re-listened to the entire talk and did transcribe some sections. I showed him and he said, “It’s pretty accurate, I reckon.”
After I turned off my computer and went to bed I reflected that it wasn’t actually overtly Calvinistic! e.g. no mention of predestination or election, etc.
Yes, I think you’re right, although I’m still trying to work out what is Just. i.e. by His own high standards what does He need to do (to maintain love, mercy & justice!)
I agree.
I reckon he would agree it’s not us choosing God but God choosing us, although I don’t think that was clear in this talk 
I will get a chance, particularly as I’m meeting up with him monthly.
Remember Carson defines “world” as “a select few from all over the world”… 
For God so loved the world, he saved half a dozen. Some love, eh?
Interesting thing about election. Suppose I said, “You love apples and I’ve got a box full. Now choose one or more apples, but there’s a restriction on how you do this. You cannot choose on the basis of color, taste, smell, or anything else to do with apples.”
In this situation, your “choice” would be random. You might toss a coin to come to your decision. If you don’t like lotteries, the only other thing to do would be to choose them all.
Now we’re told grace is lavished upon the elect with no reference to merit or any other quality in said elect. So either God’s election nothing but a Celestial Lottery, or else he must choose us all.
Alex, Tom Talbott’s brilliant chapter on George MacDonald, which you posted recently, is really helpful and succinct in exposing this false version of “justice”, showing how God’s justice and mercy are one and the same, and drawing the inevitable conclusions from this.
It is great that you are in dialogue with your pastor on this. I’m praying especially theat you won’t let your frustration show!
Still one more talk to come, on heaven, right?
That’s an interesting idea. I’ll have to try that and see what response I get… mind you if God only cares about a few elect to demonstrate His mercy and wants most people in ECT to demonstrate His justice, glory or holiness, etc. then it doesn’t really matter who He chooses 
i.e. people don’t really matter, only God does and therefore “who cares if He saves Mary or Martha, or neither?”
“All Shall Be Well” is my bed time reading and so it won’t be long until I’ll get to read that chapter
It is great that he is willing to discuss this, and even more so because he is doing so out of love for me. I’m trying hard to be self controlled and patient, as I believe it’s the loving thing to do, and ultimately a good witness to EU and God. Thanks for praying for me though.
There is, I’m undecided about whether I should go. I’ve been going to bed as early as 8pm some nights to make up for Levi waking me in the night, so going to a talk that started at 8:30pm was draining, especially as it was hard to get to sleep afterwards.
I’ve just caught up on all the other posts and have a few minutes to write some reflections on this talk. I’ve know my minister (Bernie) since primary school but I still have a lot of respect for him and see him as a friend & brother. I agree with him on many things, however, in this particular talk there were a number of things I disagreed with. For the sake of brevity, I’ll mainly be commenting on where we differ not where we agree.
If God is completely in control, He can achieve all His purposes. If God lavishly loves us, He will not only want what’s best for someone but what’s best for those connected to that person (Matt 25:31-46 is one example of the connection between people, “what you do to to one of my brothers, you do to me”). Combining the two you get EU (wants to save everyone and does), not Calvinism (able to save everyone but doesn’t want to) or Arminianism (wants to save everyone but can’t).
The Greek reads closer to “disciple all the nations”, which from my postmillennialist perspective has me wondering.
The Greek doesn’t say “for ever and ever” but the “ages of the ages”. I think the fires of Sodom are described with the same phrase and they obviously aren’t still burning in the Middle East… Also “the nations” v8 who end up there, in chapter 15:4 end up worshiping God and in 21:23-27 end up entering the New Jerusalem.
The beings in ECT are still in rebellion, at least mentally and spiritually so there are rivals.
Crudely, the devil would have way more people on his side (even is they are physically powerless) than God does. Also if hell is eternal, it means there will always be evil to contrast the good, which is dualism…
Sadly there have been some who have used hell as a means of control, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they liked the fact it existed.
I believe Jesus speaks of hell but not ECT.
Again it is fortunate this isn’t the end of the road for these people e.g. 21:23-27 they end up entering the New Jerusalem.
Unfortunately with ECT, evil doesn’t end here, it just keeps on going in the confines of hell.
The default is also not to trust God and to be fearful of Him. e.g. Gen 3:9
I’m glad it does, although it should kick in for everyone, even our enemies, because we believe God loves everyone.
Justice is a complex issue. God defines it and is the only one capable of carrying it out. I believe God dislikes sin more than anyone, however, I also believe He wants to save/redeem/heal the sinner more than anyone, and therefore does.
Symbolism can also be dramatic/hyperbole to get a point across. e.g. “Hate your mother & father”. I’m not saying this is but we need to keep that in mind also, especially with things dealing with long periods of time. e.g. “I was caught in traffic forever”.
I can live with it, as I see even hell as an expression of God’s love, a, albeit excruciating, means of God bringing about restoration. e.g. it’s like childbirth, wow, that’s painful and I wish no one had to go thru it, but at least I understand it’s an unfortunately necessity and that sound thing good will come of it.
Bedtime, God willing, I’ll continue tomorrow.
An especially appropriate reference for you (or at least for your wife!) right now, too. 
yes, although he has 3 young children so hopefully it will be a helpful example for him too.
I’m believe the Greek word isn’t “eternal” but closer to “the age beyond sight”. Others have understood the word to mean “pertaining to God”, others see it as “lasting”. Whichever it is, I see it as an undefined period of time in the afterlife, where the details of both the punishment & life are found elsewhere. e.g. the life has no death, rot or decay, and it’s in communion with God. Also given that it pictures a judgement by works, as Protestants, we should be extra careful about interpreting it as defining who is or isn’t saved.
I agree with you up until the word “permanent”, not only because I don’t see the word as “eternal”, but because I see the overarching biblical narrative promising complete reconciliation eventually. The third reason is that as far as I can tell, up until Calvin, postmortem salvation (albeit only for a few) was commonly accepted (see Mark Driscoll says “no evidence for post-mortem repentance”), add to that C.S. Lewis and other recent theologians seeing the possibility.
It’s not a matter of being good enough but a question of how far does God’s grace reach and how particular He is in His definition of what belief in Christ is. However, I’m confident that it’s only through Christ, so I think that should limit inclusivism and so I definitely wouldn’t go any further than C.S. Lewis does.
I think there are a number of strong arguments, and I would recommend reading a recent, comprehensive highly academic work on the topic, such as Terms for Eternity: Aiônios and Aïdios in Classical and Christian Texts
Obviously I would disagree with this, I think that most (possibly all but as I don’t have all the passages in front of me, so I’m not confident) of the places the word appears, it could be translated as something else and the passage would still make sense. Anyway even if there was only one exception where it definitely couldn’t mean “eternal”, then that means you wouldn’t have to translate it that way in this passage.
I can say that God is the the “age beyond sight” God, and that’s perfectly logical.
Firstly at the end of Revelations we are told the gates are wide open Secondly, what is the function of a door? It’s a way from one area to another, sometimes it’s open, sometimes it closed. If it’s permanently sealed it ceases to be a door. I don’t see the NT claiming to seal up the door, so I assume that if it’s closed, it will open again. Thirdly saying that He could’ve used another word is circular, it assumes the word means “eternal”, if it doesn’t, then it’s a fine word choice. Related to this, there is a stronger Greek word “tartasis” (spelling?) that they could’ve used if they wanted it to be clearly permanent. Fourthly Jesus would probably have said the word Hebrew “olam” which doesn’t equal eternal but something closer to “beyond sight” or “hidden”.
I don’t see this as an argument against it. I see His kingdom as permanent too and that it has already begun being ushered in, and that Judgement day will be decisive. However, I don’t want things just reach an equilibrium, I want to see evil eradicated entirely through God’s complete victory and winning over of all hearts, minds & bodies.
I have no problem with the fact that the NT speaks of punishment, although I don’t see it saying it never ends. I see all the reconciliation passages (e.g. Col 1:20) and similarly the Adam/Christ passages (e.g. 1 Cor 15), as clearly implying/requiring an end to punishment. Also passages like Lam 3:22-24 & 1 Cor 13, show us that eternal punishment would be out of character.
There are other reasons that your life matters & is significant apart from whether or not you end up in ECT.
Very.
It’s interesting that although the weeds are burned in the fire, they aren’t annihilated, which means it’s not the end of their story. I have no doubt there will be a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth before people are ready to repent and be reconciled to Christ.
Hell is a compromise, God is blessing people there with life, the ability to reason and the freedom to think what they like. Whilst He works in people there and waits for them to repent, sin continues.
Hell is a messy place.
It doesn’t imply permanency.
I’m honestly not having a go at anyone, but we rarely cry about it . I don’t know what this means, whether it’s just too overwhelming or because we see so many horrific things on TV that we become desensitized. I guess it’s also really hard to comprehend just how awful hell will be, let alone ECT 
Maybe because it is too grueling and our conscience is trying to tell us that 
Again the fact that ECT requires us to go against our consciences is a real concern.
It doesn’t. God wants to save everyone (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9, etc.), is able to achieve what He wants (Job 42:2, Eph 1:11, etc.) and therefore does.
That’s an excellent question that I’ve never heard a satisfactory answer to, unless hell is only temporary.
Notice the Pharisees that said what they would do in this hypothetical situation. Jesus implies the Jews’ inheritance will be given to the Gentiles, and that they will be broken and crushed (although one translation says scattered when fits even better with what happened in 70AD). So to begin with, it would be wrong to see this as implying the Gentiles were going to be rejected and suffer the fate of the Jews, and secondly even with the Jews’ facing terrible suffering, we know from Romans, that this isn’t the end of their story.
That is certainly in the story, but given Jesus states in His conclusion that “I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit”, I would see that as the point of the story, or at least the take away point for the Pharisees.
Yes, He was telling the Pharisees that they hadn’t recognised the Son and therefore would be cut off (but in Romans we discover this was only so that the Gentiles could be grafted on, so that God’s mercy is shown to never come to an end, that it is new every morning, that great is His faithfulness).
It’s true God tried again and again to communicate with Israel and they rejected Him. However, that doesn’t make them 100% pure evil because by His grace they are make in His image, obviously not enough to make them righteous by their own doing.
It appears Hell will be required, however, it isn’t the final solution because thanks be to God, He has provided forgiveness and salvation to us, His enemies.
We certainly don’t live up Jesus’ standards and are totally dependent on His mercy & grace, but that should cause us to want to be healed, corrected, cleaned and sanctified, rather than see Hell as the solution to the problem.
If God can convert Saul, the worst of sinners who was murdering Jesus daily (by killing Christians), He can convert anyone if He wants to!
The fact He hasn’t should be a good indication that He is merciful and patient.
Yes, we each have to decide where we stand before God, however, because humanity is intimately linked, it does matter what happens to everyone else too.
When I been sinful and look at how wonderful and good Jesus is, I rejoice at how great He is to be able to cleanse even me.
Many can imply all, as shown in passages where “all” parallels “many”, and there’s something about it’s use in the OT but I can’t remember the details
Hell but not ECT.
He’s angry because He loves them and wants them to stop sinning.
Of course it’s not like we can “own everyone else’s eternity.” Hopefully we can trust there is a God that is concerned for that and has that all under wraps. But, not to be concerned with it, desire that all should be saved - just like God says he does, trust in God’s faithfulness to the faithless…is almost to say don’t worry about loving your neighbor as your self. Don’t worry about anybody else, just yourself and your own butt, your own bottom line. This way of thinking, if we took it to heart, would make us unconcerned for the lost, which is precisely what I think happens. So many Christians are content to believe they are making the choice and too bad for the others that don’t. We must just accept that they weren’t able to get it in time and probably never would. (Which, I don’t know why that is if our salvation is a result of God’s efforts/will. Calvinists obviously have an answer to this.) They still worship the God that damns most of creation or worse the God that specificly created people for damnation.
I can’t figure out how to love this kind of God, that even though he loves me he is ok giving up on others and damning them endlessly. If I love my neighbors as myself and would not want for them what I would not want for myself how can I accept they’ll be endlessly tormented with no purpose? I’m with Talbott that it’s impossible for God to love us if he doesn’t love the ones we love.
Bernie said…
Alex said…
How about 1 Tim. 2:5-7: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.” Also, reminds me of the many in Romans 5:19, “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” Clearly all were made sinners, not many, right? So the same many will be made righteous.
I 100% agree with you, and thank God Talbott has made that point so clear to us!
Thanks Amy, that’s exactly what I was looking for 