The Evangelical Universalist Forum

My Sister, still-births, and abortions

Theology Biblical Theology
#21

If hellism is true, no Christian in their right mind would have children. The risk of losing one of your loved ones to everlasting torment would be too great. Similarly, if an aborted fetus or an stillborn baby goes straight to Heaven, then surely it would be best to kill your children while they were still innocent, again to guarantee their eternal bliss even at the cost of your own damnation.

It seems clear that there are things to be learned by living a mortal life that can be learned in no other way. If so, some other context will be provided in God’s good time for those who die before their time. But it’s all speculation. If David Deutsch’s multiverse is real, there already exists a universe in which those little ones did not die.

There are all sorts of unanswerable questions. People can live with half a brain, so I’m told. Supposing Mary’s brain dies. George donates half his brain to save her. George’s personality changes radically. Mary is now alive, goes off and lives her new life. When they die, who goes to Heaven? The first Mary? The second Mary? The first George? The second George?

#22

That makes sense to me (which is why it seems to me that the resurrection of Judgment will involve a resurrection to mortal life.)

I’m not sure I follow you.

If you’re saying that every possible universe that could exist does exist, there’d be a universe where I died at birth, and a universe where I grew up with my sister–but how could I be the same person in that universe that I am here?

Will there be more than one me (more than one AllanS, more the one of all of us) in the resurrection?

If the individual soul, or spirit, is more than the meterial brain–if the brain is like a recevier, that interfaces with the spirit==George would still be George, and Mary would still be Mary.

#23

This is interesting.

godsplanforall.com/lakeoffire1

#24

This is so hard to put into words. I’ve thought about this so much over the years. Things like this.

ok. I’m going to try to word this. Bear with me.

This is my current view.

We are here to learn. We are here to learn who God is. (love) and the only way to truly understand who HE is and the POWER (of love) is to experience this world of constrasts. Light and dark. Day and night. Love and non-love.

What is LOVE is of God.
what is non-love is NOT of God. We are experiencing life WITH Him and life WITHOUT Him. (with and without love.)
I believe Jesus came to point the way to the Father.
He showed us God’s neverending love for us.
First was the law, as our schoolteacher.
Now Jesus showed us that LOVE fulfills the law.
Love God with all of your heart mind and soul = He is pushing us to TRULY understand Him. (no way you can love a god with all your heart, who would torture most of humanity. FEAR? YES! But we know there is no fear in love.) This commandment is a push to seeking Him, searching Him out and KNOWING Him.
Love your neighbor as yourself. (no explanation needed.)

I see it as God weavng a tapestry. Every single thread that makes up this tapestry is a life.
Each life is precious and VITAL to the whole.
Not ONE can be lost. ALL lives are necessary, VITAL, IRREPLACABLE!
He is showing something through each life.
From the most loving to the most unloving.
From the most powerful to the least powerful. (in both spiritual terms and worldly terms.)
The high. The low.
Every life lived is a thread.

We can’t see the tapestry now, but we WILL. Each life lived will show us ALL someting about the POWER of LOVE and the destructive nature of NON-LOVE.

This life is absolutely necessary. But that doesn’t mean that the life that only lived for one day here will not be a part of it. Or will not learn. That life that only lived one day… that life caused so many different reactions and emotions and learning opportunities for us as a WHOLE. The only ones who may have been touched by that little baby that only lived for ONE day are the people who were closest to that baby. Loved ones, family members, the doctor, the nurse, friends of the family, etc.
BUT… one day, we will ALL realize that we are ALL family, we are all brothers and sisters. And that little baby who lived for only one day, or one minute, or who was not even given the chance to be BORN into our world AT ALL, we will ALL be touched by that baby. That baby is our brother or our sister. Do you think we will not know all of our brothers and sisters? We see through the glass darkly now, but then we will know as we are known. This gives me hope. So much of God’s character of love gives me hope of SO many things. Things that I felt so defeated and despressed about… I KNOW that LOVE conquers all. There is nothing that LOVE cannot conquer. Everything happening… y’know, it’s going to be OK.

That baby that lived for one day, one hour… just because that baby did not experience the things that we have on earth, does not mean that that baby’s spirit will not be amongst all the rest of us. I remember thinking once “Well if a baby doesn’t grow up or live beyond the womb, how on earth is that human being going to understand what love is, or what non-love does to us, this contrast!!” Then it slowly started to dawn on me that we really ARE all in this thing together. We don’t know what our spirits are! They are capable of things, that we probably never would have dreamed of. (no eye has seen…) so who am I to limit God’s power? Or to think that I see the whole big picture. There are so many things that I know I don’t yet see or understand. And I can look at another human being and pick out things that I KNOW for CERTAIN that they don’t yet understand. What if they die tomorrow in that not-knowing? Their spirit is going to go on and eventually learn… just like mine is. Do I think that the spirit of that baby is any different than my own?

Each of our lives, I firmly believe will end up being used to teach EVERYONE something of the POWER of LOVE. The power of our CREATOR. God IS love.

I just want to end this with one last little thought. It was something that kind of popped in my head a few nights ago.

Psalm 30:11-12
11 You have turned for me my mourning into dancing;
you have loosed my sackcloth
and clothed me with gladness,
12 that **my glory ** (whoa! Wait. “MY” glory. MY GLORY??) **may sing your praise **and not be silent.
O Lord my God, I will give thanks to you forever!

What is “my glory”? Our “glorified bodies”… hmmmm.
Just thinking about “clothed me with gladness” and “my glory may sing your praise and not be silent” and “i give thanks to you forever” that is very interesting! Maybe our new being that we are clothed with will glorify God because it will be our gladness and love and praise to Him. Perhaps each of our “glorified bodies” is a totally** unique** (based on our own unique “thread” in this tapestry), beautiful, OUTWARD, VISIBLE, sort of CLOAK of our LOVE and GLADNESS and PRAISE towards HIM. our creator. wow.

Eye has not seen.

Our sufferings are creating for us a glory that is to be revealed.
ARe you guys following me?
Each life is unique.
Each life will end up being a TESTAMENT to the power of love. (God is love.)
Each life will end up being a forever monument to the power of love. (God is love.)
and How LOVE INDEED CONQUERS ALL.

Maybe our resurrected bodies will shine forth with amazing glory because it is REFLECTING Him.
And SHINING forth from within, our LOVE for him. Our love for each other. :slight_smile:
Each one of us unique.
Each one of us forever, together, “clothed with gladness”.
I fully believe that each of us is a thread in that tapestry that God is weaving. We only see a few threads now, we only see limited portions of the tapestry, but we will ALL understand when we are finally able to see the BIG PICTURE. And that little day-old baby’s spirit… will rejoice right along with us. Afterall, that little baby’s thread is woven right in along with the rest of our threads. The people in political power, your next door neighbor, the bully, the bullied, the poor, the rich, the starving, the mourners, uneducated and the PhD, the gangbanger and the homeless man, the movie star and the housewife. We really are ALL family. We all have something in common. Each life lived is going to show us something that we ALL need to see. Whether our life lasted for one minute or 105 years. We are MORE than what our earthly lives show. We are spirit.
What is seen is temporary, what is unseen is eternal.
We are MORE than what our earthly lives show for now…

I am really digging that picture.

peace, sorry if this was a bit scattered. But it all ties in together for me. It’s just so very, VERY difficult to try to word it so that others can kind of see what it going on in my head/heart. I wish I were an artist :ugeek: and could paint a picture. But my drawings sometimes look like I drew with my feet. Hmmm. sometimes my thoughts I type out look like that too. uh oh. oh well. :confused: :cry:

peace,
sparrow

#25

Thank you sparrow.

So your saying that this mortal life might be necessary for my sister, even if she never lives it herself?

I’ve thought about that.

She might be connected to it in someway now, or when the books are finally opened.

That could be kind of an answer I guess.

We might all be connected, and all able to see and learn from the big tapistry, and feel and appreciate our places in it (between death and resurrection, or when all is brought to light)?

I’ve thought about that, but I was told (on an another forum) that that was heresy (or at least a dangerous line of speculation)

I’m constantly amazed at how dogmatic people who have no answer to a question can be when it comes to eliminating answers.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

#26

Hi Michael, I’m sorry I posted that and then was not very active here later on when you replied.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that yes, you get the idea of what I was suggesting.
I find it amazing too, that people are so closed off to possibilities, and so ready to shrink away from things without fully examining, tearing apart and rebuilding and looking at things from every possible angle and perspective that they can muster. I too have had the “heresy” label tossed at what I said above. I think folks let fear get the best of them. Fear keeps your mind captive not allowing it to be free to wonder and ponder deeply. My view is just what makes the most sense to me viewing life with the perspective that ALL are crucial, every life is precious, we’re all in this together. Like an interactive unfolding of truth. (boy that last line REALLY sounded like a heretic… ack!! “interactive unfolding of the truth”? What is THAT? EEEK!!! :astonished: ) :wink: I just mean, we’re all a part of what God is showing us. We’re all a crucial part to the unraveling of the mysteries, so to speak. All apart of this journey to truth. Everything happening great and small.

peace,
sparrow

#27

Thank you sparrow.