I do help people when I see they are in need of help, for example, I helped an old man get his grocery’s off the bus, so much for not letting my left hand knowing what my right hand is doing:
MATTHEW 6:1-4:
-1: Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
-2: Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
-3: But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
-4: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
My concern is that I am not doing anything regarding giving money away like The Lord Jesus Christ commanded:
LUKE 12:31-34:
-31: But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
-32: Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
-33: Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
-34: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Here we are commanded to give money away and trust God to take care of us, however, I lack the faith to do so, I pray that God will conform me to the image of The Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 8:29), but I fear that He won’t hear me until I change myself:
JOHN 9:31:
-31: Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
I understand that this is not The Lord Jesus Christ speaking and I understand that the context is healing prayers, but still, this verse concerns me.
Potentially
But if death is destroyed AFTER the annihilation of those placed under Christ’s feet, then the destruction of death could mean no one will die at all after that event.
Point taken, I suppose the baby Christian argument doesn’t really work.
Stop them horses. Aren’t there many kinds of death in the Bible? Spiritual death, physical death, death to sin, etc. Kind of like talking about a clan from the hills - the Hatfields and Mccoys. But they have different first names.
It would actually be impractical to conclude that any ism is true or false. If it’s based upon a single Bible verse or chapter. Take hell, for example. Whether it is annihilation / conditional immortality, a refining fire (i.e. universalism), metaphorical view, ECT, Exile (like in Sarte’s No Exit), P-Zombie (i.e. N.T. Wright’s becoming subhuman), Heaven and Hell being in the presences of God (i.e. EO), etc. It’s really involves Biblical hermeneutics, of the entire canon of scripture.
That’s harsh, people come onlline all the time doubting their salvation.
Potentially it could be viewed this way (and I certainly hope this is the correct way of viewing it), HOWEVER, we know for a fact that the Nephilim (fallen angle giant offspring which were destroyed in the global flood) won’t be returning since they were not originally created by God, what is to stop someone from thinking that the wicked won’t be returning either and the destruction of death is to make sure the redeemed saved never die?
Well if one died right after becoming a Christian (like the theif on the cross next to The Lord Jesus Christ for example), they didn’t produce any works, whether they be gold, silver, and precious stones, or wood, hay, and stubble.
With that being said, what is to stop someone from interpreting 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 as talking about baby Christians, people (including myself in the past) already interpret it as talking about carnal Christians.
Keep in mind that the next verses (1 Corinthians 3:16-23) talk about destruction:
1 CORINTHIANS 3:16-23:
-16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
-17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
-18: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
-19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
-20: And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
-21: Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your’s;
-22: Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your’s;
-23: And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
Could 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 only apply to those who don’t defile the temple of God?
If I’m reading the Online Greek Interlinear Bible correctly (link - scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm), the same Greek word is translated both ‘defile’ and ‘destroy’, and that word is 'φθείρω [phtheirō] (Strong’s Reference Number G5351), although the word is spelt differently on BlueLetterBible (link - blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g5351) than on the Online Greek Interlinear Bible (probably because BlueLetterBible only shows base words), bascially the word means either to corrupt or destroy.
Like I said, we know the Nephilim are not coming back, what is to stop one from seeing the same about the wicked being annihilated prior to the destruction of death, and then death being destroyed from then on?
No, God did not originally create them.
The Nephlim were a result of the third of angels who fell with Lucifer, they mated with human women and create giants who destroyed the earth - THAT is why God sent a flood. There have been giant skeletons found proving this.
GENESIS 6:4:
-4: There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
That it’s inconsistent with core Christian principles, and verses in scripture that say all creation will submit to God.
Is it possible for all creation to submit to God (please find me a verse that specifically says ‘all creation’) and not be saved because they missed their opportunity (either died or were given over to a reprobate mind(Romans 1:28)):
2 CORINTHIANS 6:2:
-2: (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Also, The Lord Jesus Christ makes it clear that he will be successful saving all of the SHEEP, but Matthew 25:31-46 talks about two groups, the SHEEP and the GOATS, how do we know The Lord Jesus Christ will be successful saving the GOATS?
Point taken,
but do all non-Christians “defile the temple of God”?
Like I said, the Nephlim were not originally created by God in the first place, they are a hybrid species which came from sin.
JEREMIAH 19:5:
-5: They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Isaiah 66:24 which is AFTER Isaiah 45 talks about “carcases of the men that have transgressed against me”:
ISAIAH 66:24:
-24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
As for “Why would God want creatures to submit, but choose not to save them?”, I don’t know, maybe (although this is a long shot), God wants them to know their punishment is just.
I think everyone deserves annihilation, but no one deserves Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT), even for Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Kim Jong-Un. Osama Bbin Laden and Margaret Sanger, ECT would not be just after 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 millennia.
Not on this forum I don’t think, and it is a very important question, I have no doubt the Lord Jesus Christ will save all fo the SHEEP, but what about the GOATS?
I don’t know.
What about Christians who sin, want to stop but can’t, and call on God to help them stop, does God hear them? or do they need to change themselves first? I ask this because of:
JOHN 9:31:
-31: Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Once again, I understand that this is not The Lord Jesus Christ speaking and I understand that the context is healing prayers, but still, the question must be asked.
Hi Chad… that quote you asked about was made by STT not qaz.
There is another understanding on the Nephilim… they were certain offspring of “the sons of God” (Israelites) and “the daughters of men” (non-Israelites). This would be possible IF the Genesis account is a proto-Israel story, which I think it probably is. We know from later on in Israel’s story that intermarriage with outsiders was forbidden.
Didn’t the thief on the cross “produce a work” when he witnessed to the non-repentant thief?—saying, "“Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
A child conceived in rape (which is no less a child, I wish people wouldn’t say rape gives a woman right for an abortion, rape is a sin, murder is too) is 100% human, whereas the Nephilim are a hybrid specices. Think of it like this, the Nephilim is what would result of evolution, if evolution were possible, which it’s not.
Noah’s flood was sent to destroy the Nephilim, but sadly people also died because they didn’t get on the ark and thought Noah was crazy.
And this begs the question, what do these verses mean:
1 PETER 3:18-22:
-18: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
-19: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
-20: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
-21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
-22: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Isaiah 66 is not prophetic? Are you sure about that? read the full context?
ISAIAH 66:-24:
-24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Sound familiar?
MARK 9:43
-43: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
That wasn’t the question.
The question is if one is sinning, they desire to stop, but they are unable to bring themselves to do so, so they call out to God to change them so they can stop, does God hear this prayer? Or do they need to change themselves first? I ask this because of:
JOHN 9:31:
-31: Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Once again, I understand that this is not The Lord Jesus Christ speaking and I understand that the context is healing prayers, but still, the question must be asked.
Point taken, but there could be people out there who becoming a Christian shortly before their death where they can’t even do what the thief on the cross did?
Also, could ‘wood, hay, and stubble’ not necessarily be bad works, but inferior works? as in they are good works, but not as good as ‘gold, silver, and precious stones’?
1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is sometimes related to Malachi 3:2-3 by univeralists:
MALACHI 3:2-3:
-2: But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
-3: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
This also brings up the question, what do Universalists do with Zechariah 13:8-9 which talks about 2 parts being cut off and dying AND THEN a refinement:
ZECHARIAH 13:8-9:
-8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
-9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
Well, in considering the whole passage, I don’t think it is merely a difference in degree, but a difference in kind. For in the last Day, both kinds of works will be tested by fire. Fire doesn’t harm gold, silver, and precious stones. But fire burns up wood, hay, and straw. One should also notice that both kinds of work are built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. I think this indicates that these works were done by Christians (that is, disciples of Christ). Paul says, that if the right kind of works are done, the Christian will be rewarded, but if the useless kind is done, he will not be rewarded. Nevertheless, he will be saved from lasting correction. Such correction is unnecessary since his character isn’t bad. It’s just that he’s spent his life in useless pursuits, so that there is little or nothing he has done that is worth rewarding.
For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
Actually I’m going on the premise that God doesn’t want to save the Nephilim because they were not even a species created by Him in the first place. If things were restored back to the way they were in the Garden of Eden before the fall, there would be no Nephilim.
I’m not saying the Nephilim were products of evolution, I’m saying if evolution were true, everyone would be mindless killing machines like the Nephilim were.
I wouldn’t make a straw man against something I want to believe in, your comment appeared to be implying Isaiah 66 wasn’t prophetic.
I am sorry for misreading your comment.
It begs the question though, how can universalism be true, when the last verse of the last chapter of a prophetic book talk about “the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me” and then says “for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched;”, the wording that The Lord Jesus Christ used when talking about Gehenna?
Yeah I talked about before how the works being on the foundation of The Lord Jesus Christ implies the works being done by Christians, however, if they are saved from lasting correction like you say, what does it mean that they are saved by the fire itself?
On a positive note, today I discovered something that is evidence towards Universalism, for those who don’t know, the word translated as ‘goats’ (ἔριφος’ [eriphos] (Strong’s Reference Number G2056)’)in Matthew 25:31-46 is referring to a baby goat ([tag]JasonPratt[/tag] pointed this out in this video - youtube.com/watch?v=GWhcclWGmE4), apparently the Greek word (‘πρόβατον [probaton] (Strong’s Reference Number G4263)’)word translated as ‘sheep’ can refer to any 'four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, but the inspired New Testament Greek only ever uses the word to refer to sheep so it is unknown if the word means that in the Bible. Anyway, could these be the same baby goats (or ‘kids’) referenced in Isaiah 11:6:
ISAIAH 11:6:
-6: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
The Greek Septuagint uses a similar Greek word to the one translated as ‘goats’ in Matthew 25:32, Matthew 25:32 uses ‘ἔριφος’ and the LXX (Greek Septuagint) uses ‘ἐρίφῳ’ (clicking on the word in the Online Greek Septuagint uses refers to ‘ἔριφος’ though)’.
Matthew 25:32 and Isaiah 11:6 may not be referring to the same goats though, but I thought this was worth mentioning.
Even if the goats are eventaully saved after ‘lasting correction’ (still don’t understand how ‘κόλασις [kolasis] (Strong’s Reference Number G2851)’ can mean ‘prune’ when it is translated as ‘torment’ in (1 John 4:18), does The Lord Jesus Christ save the wolves.
And then I have another objection I can’t find an answer to, one of the key aspects of Christian Universalism is thst ‘hell’ (for the lack of a better word) is a refiners fire, we see this concept in Malachi 3:2-3 by univeralists:
MALACHI 3:2-3:
-2: But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
-3: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.
HOWEVER, this is specifically talking about the “sons of Levi”, and we see in Zechariah 13:8-9 that two thirds are cut off and die AND THEN a refinement:
ZECHARIAH 13:8-9:
-8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
-9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
ZECHARIAH 13:8-9:
-8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
-9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
This is a perfect example of what fire does. It purifies.
