On Preterism, the Second Coming and Hell


#207

G’day Ricky, welcome to the forum…

There is a good degree of diverse opinion within the prêterist view on given matters, as there is for example among universalists etc, so I don’t speak directly (or indirectly) on behalf of prêterists; however to some degree I’ll give a pantelist’ (inclusive prêterist) perspective.

The ‘judgment’ of 1Cor 3 is seen as relative to the AD70 Parousia which encompassed the final end of the old covenant (AD66-70 age (world); Rev’s 3½yrs, 42mths etc, culmination with Jerusalem and in particular the Temple being awash with flames… aka “the lake of fire”, from which there would be NO resurrection in terms of the desolation of the old covenant age (world), WHICH is WHY the same was likewise describe by John as “the second death”… there was prophetic promise of resurrection from Israel’s first death i.e., her EXILE under Babylon, but in Christ ALL things were made anew aka “a new creation”.

It needs to be noted that Jewish insurgents were afoot throughout Palestine and certainly further afield to which Rome’s Legions were often and quickly dispatched to put down such uprisings and insurrections. “Christianity” in its very early days was considered nothing more than a Jewish sect and duly pursued due to its advocacy that “Jesus is Lord” NOT Caesar! Thus it was not unimaginable that the early church of far-flung Asia Minor with strong links to ‘Jerusalem’ still took to heart such threats as were laid against the birthplace of their movement.

To the ‘judgment’ itself… said judgment was particularly upon one’s “works” as opposed to just the particular individual; though there were tough times and one’s personal safety could easily be in peril. Again, in the NT “judgment” is most often associated with “works”. Jesus said…

According to Paul worthless works would entail loss, but whatever endured or was “lasting” (menei <μενεῖ>) into the coming new age would receive its due reward. Paul goes onto say that “and the fire will test each one’s work” which most likely has some bearing on Jesus “For everyone will be salted with fire” of Mk 9:49 – a reference not to universal postmortem burnings for all and sundry, but rather a reference to the fire of persecution that would through trial and tribulation test (refine) the followers of the Way…

Having one’s works “salted” or “tested” by “fire” had much more to do with antemortem realities, i.e., to do with this life than with postmortem calamities, and was very much limited to believers – true disciples in faithful service were a “living sacrifice” (Rom 12:1) who would be tried by the fires of persecution.

As the purifying agency of salt accompanied OT sacrifices (Lev 2:13) so too would the soon coming fires of trial and tribulation accompany and so test (refine/purify) NT believers…

This then as I understand it IS what Jesus meant by his…

Again… the “everyone” according to the greater context being fully inclusive of the group in view, i.e., the believers of the day.

The “life or death consequences” I see as more relevant to that burgeoning church where certain selfish individuals were “not discerning the Lord’s body” (the church) and eating and drinking “in an unworthy manner” NOT considering the needs of others and so found themselves being “judged” aka “chastened by the Lord”. And so it would seem some may have ended up in a similar predicament much like Ananias and Sapphira.


#208

Thanks for the answer, it makes a lot of sense. Do you know where I can get the book: This Book will Change your Life. It was written by another pantelist. I believe it was in pdf format some time ago.


#209

Who is the author, Ricky? If you type “this book will change your life pdf” into Google or Bing, you can get many sites offering a download. The book has the same title. But it is probably a very popular, self-help book. :exclamation: :smiley:


#210

Can’t say I’ve ever heard of any book specific to ‘pantelism’ in the offing, but that doesn’t mean anything. :sunglasses: The pantelists I’ve been loosely involved with over the years have treated our view as somewhat fluid and progressive, but that’s not to say someone hasn’t collated something. I know I’ve discussed this position way more on forum sites than I actually have articles up on my own site. :mrgreen:


#211

I am clearing my throat… :exclamation: :smiley:


#212

Like this :question: :laughing:


#213

I like your post but unfortunately David knows where I stand. :laughing:

Peace folks. :smiley:


#214

The title of the book actually is: This Book will Change your World, by Kevin Beck.


#215

Found the book, thanks!!!


#216

Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
(Matt 24:1,2 ESV)

This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70. And that’s the extent of my preterism!

The next sentence:
As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?”

I believe the disciples were asking him about two different matters:

  1. When will these things be? (that is, the destruction of the temple)
    and
  2. What will be the sign of your coming and the close of the age? (A reference to the future second coming, and the close of this present age).

Like the Christians of the second century, I am what is now called “a historic pre-millenialist.” They taught the second coming of Christ as an event future to themselves, long after 70 A.D.


#217

My preterism is pretty unusual. I learned the rudiments of it from Eugenio Corsini’s The Apocalypse: The Perennial Revelation of Jesus Christ and from N. T. Wright’s Jesus and the Victory of God. Of course, any conclusions I draw from their premises are my own.

I believe that passage was fulfilled in A. D. 30. I do not think Jesus was talking about the architectural temple, but rather about His own body (John 2:19-21). In other words, that passage refers to Christ’s death and resurrection.

I think the key to understanding the Olivet Discourse in all three Synoptic Gospels is how we understand the words “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” in Matthew 24:30. When we consult Daniel 7:13-14 we see that the Son of Man comes from the earth below up to the Father above, using the same language Christ used in Matthew 24:30. In other words, the coming of the Son of Man in the Olivet Discourse refers to Christ’s ascension into Heaven in A. D. 30. The entirety of the Olivet Discourse, then, refers to events starting with Christ’s earthly ministry and culminating in the descent of the Holy Spirit on the 120 on Pentecost in A. D. 30.

The only thing in the Bible that I believe is future to us is the Second Coming of Christ, and I believe this glorious, future event is mentioned only in Acts and in some of the Epistles.

When shall the Second Coming occur? Nobody knows, and nobody can ever have even the faintest inkling of a clue. We can’t even date it to the nearest billion years.


#218

Ah yes Ricky, sorry my bad, bad memory (like 7yrs ago)… I realised I had Kevin’s book (in pdf) when I googled it and saw the cover on Amazon. ** Here it is** for anyone to read. :slight_smile:


#219

Out of curiosity, what is your position on the Tribulation? My hunch is that you are a post-tribulationalist, but I could easily be wrong.

(My understanding of the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21 is that it refers to Christ’s Passion and Crucifixion.)


#220

thanx :smiley:


#221

Full prêterism (or as a cheeky chap once quipped to me “fool-prêterism” :laughing:) wouldn’t really argue with that BUT to say, THAT is fully inclusive within the event… ultimately culminating then with Christ’s AD70 Parousia “in the glory of the Father”. And thus “these things” (the Temple) and “the close of the age” (the Mosaic age/world, i.e., being ALL that the Temple stood for) WERE INDEED one and the SAME thing; there was NO schizophrenia happening here.

Anyway… check out that free e-book above as it makes a good argument, IMO.


#222

Praise God Paidion… you’re on your way!! Never quibble at the day of small beginnings. :smiley:


#223

#224

I tend to be with you with a few small caveats, I am of the faith that the second coming, as told in the gospels, has done been done. But your focus on the cross is absolutely inspirational, and thanks. :smiley:


#225

The ‘covenant eschatological’ perspective views the Cross and Parousia as God’s ONE time redemptive intervention in history, and as such sees these as bookends to this event in terms of the Cross being the DECISIVE event and the Parousia being the CULMINATING event.


#226

Thanks Davo.