Packer: The Problem of Eternal Punishment (1990)

[_oxymoron]

You make a good point that not all change is good. Can there be any further growth or reform in our understanding of the Bible or do we already know, and have a correct understanding, of everything in it already?

Anytime I hear questions such as these it sends up red flags because imo that is dangerous. It very much reminds me in the book of Genesis when the serpent asked Eve, Did God really say? Pretty soon you will ask yourself right out of Christianity. These same questions were asked and even entertained in Europe and look at Europe now. It is atheistic. What was once the cradle of Christianity where great men like Martin Luther came from is all but gone.

Who are the real evangelicals?

That’s the question today, what is an evangelical?

Sure, I totally agree with that, which is why I think we should challenge the majority view of ECT.

Apart from the obvious that bad theology has no scriptural support. Have you ever asked yourself, by what right do you have to challenge the very foundation of Christian teaching? and how are you any different from heretics who wanted to do the same? Is that not audacious because basically you are saying, the church has had it wrong all this time but we have the truth. My question to you is if you have the truth then why isn’t it accepted as truth? Why wouldn’t Christians such as myself embrace this theology as we would now be able to rejoice that our precious lost unbelieving loved ones are with Christ and not being tormented in the lake of fire for eternity? God Bless

[Lefein]

Anytime I hear questions such as these it sends up red flags because imo that is dangerous. It very much reminds me in the book of Genesis when the serpent asked Eve, Did God really say? Pretty soon you will ask yourself right out of Christianity. These same questions were asked and even entertained in Europe and look at Europe now. It is atheistic. What was once the cradle of Christianity where great men like Martin Luther came from is all but gone.

Asking questions is dangerous. But danger isn’t always negative-trend. Asking questions is dangerous to blind faith. Faith that sees the living God however, is not afraid to ask the tough questions.

“Test all things, hold on to the good.”

As for Europe, it isn’t entirely Atheistic - but as far as what Atheism has become, it is because the Europeans are disillusioned with a god who will torture mankind forever for not doing it this way, or that way. Europe is soon on the cusp of a revival I am sure. God isn’t weak, and Europe hasn’t fallen out of his hands.

That’s the question today, what is an evangelical?

I’ll take the question further - What is a Christian?

Apart from the obvious that bad theology has no scriptural support.

EU has plenty of it. The problem is that it doesn’t have “my favourite ETC interpretation of scripture” support. Other than that, it has all sorts of support.

Have you ever asked yourself, by what right do you have to challenge the very foundation of Christian teaching?

That foundation being that Christ died, was buried, and resurrected - is the Son of God, and is the Messiah. Eternal Damnation isn’t the foundation of Christian teaching - Christ is.

and how are you any different from heretics who wanted to do the same?

Martin Luther was a heretic. So was Jesus back in the day. Most of the prophets would have been called heretics back in their day too.

Is that not audacious because basically you are saying, the church has had it wrong all this time but we have the truth.

Israel swore for hundreds of years that their Messiah would come as a man of war, setting up an earthly kingdom in which Israel would rule over the whole world with an iron fist and make the Gentiles their slaves. They were very wrong.

The Roman Catholic Church swore for hundreds of years that…well…There is a reason we had a reformation isn’t there?

My question to you is if you have the truth then why isn’t it accepted as truth?

Christ, The Truth, was rejected by his own people too.

Why wouldn’t Christians such as myself embrace this theology as we would now be able to rejoice that our precious lost unbelieving loved ones are with Christ and not being tormented in the lake of fire for eternity?

You hath not eyes to see, nor ears to hear it yet, perhaps?

[Alex_Smith]

You make a good point that not all change is good. Can there be any further growth or reform in our understanding of the Bible or do we already know, and have a correct understanding, of everything in it already?

Anytime I hear questions such as these it sends up red flags because imo that is dangerous. It very much reminds me in the book of Genesis when the serpent asked Eve, Did God really say? Pretty soon you will ask yourself right out of Christianity. These same questions were asked and even entertained in Europe and look at Europe now. It is atheistic. What was once the cradle of Christianity where great men like Martin Luther came from is all but gone.

You haven’t answered my question though. Can there be any further growth or reform in our understanding of the Bible?

Who are the real evangelicals?

That’s the question today, what is an evangelical?

I agree it’s certainly a good, relevant question. As you appear to have strong views about what isn’t evangelical, I was hoping you would shed some light on what is evangelical?

Sure, I totally agree with that, which is why I think we should challenge the majority view of ECT.

Apart from the obvious that bad theology has no scriptural support.

I don’t think it is obvious, otherwise this forum would not exist and there wouldn’t be any Evangelical Universalists. i.e. Robin only coined the phrase because he thought it *had *scriptural support.

Have you ever asked yourself, by what right do you have to challenge the very foundation of Christian teaching?

I don’t think it’s “the very foundation”, however, yes I have asked myself “am I right to challenge ECT” and the answer is “Yes” because we are commanded to test teachers and weigh up what the Bible says ourselves, not taking for granted the words & traditions of men.

how are you any different from heretics who wanted to do the same?

I’m honestly trying to take the Bible seriously and follow Christ. A lot of heretics don’t do this.

Is that not audacious because basically you are saying, the church has had it wrong all this time but we have the truth.

That’s an excellent question. Firstly the church hasn’t had is wrong all this time, there have always been a few universalists around trying to be heard. Secondly, and this relates to the question above, “when do we stop reforming Christianity?”.

My question to you is if you have the truth then why isn’t it accepted as truth?

Another good question, that I often ask myself. I initial hoped that simply showing people TEU, which goes from Gen to Rev highlighting God’s plan of UR, would be enough. Sadly it seems to take more to change people; to convince them to stop fearing God and trust Him that He loves more (scope & depth) than they ever imagined. Having said that, I think a growing number of people are accepting it as truth.

Why wouldn’t Christians such as myself embrace this theology as we would now be able to rejoice that our precious lost unbelieving loved ones are with Christ and not being tormented in the lake of fire for eternity?

I honestly don’t know what in your heart is holding you back, but I believe that the Holy Spirit will one day enable you to embrace it and we’ll rejoice together in God’s blessings