panhandling

[anon12438761]

But it may help them get through the night, put a bit of food in their tummy and who knows? Maybe God will be pleased with the cheerful giving of a generous heart.

[Origen]

.
The AA organization considers alcoholism to be a disease. If you have a disease, it’s not your fault that you have it. As long as a person bears no responsibility for his alcoholism, he will never truly conquer it.

“A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease.[58]”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_t … alcoholism
alcoholproblemsandsolutions … se.html#40

Do the 12 steps & 12 traditions of AA not put responsibility on the alcoholic to quit:

THE TWELVE STEPS OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
   unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
   sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
   understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
   of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
   amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
   so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
    admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
    God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and
    the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to
    carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
    affairs.

aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf

aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdf

[Paidion]

Read a free preview online of "Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease by Herbert Fingarette.

scribd.com/document/78186263/Fingarette-Herbert-Heavy-Drinking-the-Myth-of-Alcoholism-as-a-Disease

You can also download a pdf file of the book.

[maintenanceman]

I looked at the book outline. And I am in agreement with you Don , but I just have to ask, are the majority of the panhandlers (beggars as you say) having a problem with heavy drinking in your estimation? There may be other causes.

You said it is possible that the idea was that the panhandlers could not find work in another post. if any of these are reality, what do we do to fix or change things?

Thanks…

[St_Michael]

Once a cucumber turns into a pickle it stays a pickle. This is what A.A. means by alcoholism being a disease. The true alcoholic drinks because he likes the effect produced by alcohol. Once he starts drinking it produces a phenomena of craving to where he sooner or late will be on a binge. This is why the recovering alcoholic chooses to admit defeat and complete powerlessness and turn his will over to the care of God. The alcoholic chooses to surrender and let God have control of his life. He has a disease in the sense that he cannot drink like other people and must refrain from alcohol. As Bill Wilson (the founder of A.A.) states in the above text I provided, alcoholics must never be blinded by the futile philosophy that they are just the hapless victims of their inheritance, of their life experience, and of their surroundings— that these are the sole forces that make their decisions for them. This is not the road to freedom. We have to believe that we can really choose.

[St_Michael]

Genetics don’t force behavior. They predispose. An example is a study that was done with two genetically identical twins born from alcoholic parents. One grew up to be an alcoholic and the other didn’t. Moreover, all sin is a disease according to the Bible.

And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” ~~ Mark 2:17

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. ~~ John 8:34

Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil. ~~ Jer. 13:23

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law. But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! ~~ Romans 7:18-25

[Paidion]

Moreover, all sin is a disease according to the Bible.

Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that all sin is a disease. None of the verses you quoted state it.
Sin is not a disease; sin is a choice. So is heavy drinking or alcoholism.

I have known heavy drinkers or “alcoholics” (if you choose to call them that) who have made the decision to quit drinking, and have succeeded.

Also AA affirms that if an alcoholic ever takes a drink again, after going through the AA program, he will fall into the same drinking pattern. They say, “Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic.” This also is not true. I have known alcoholics who have stopped drinking heavily, and who could still have an occasional drink without falling into heavy drinking again.

[St_Michael]

Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that all sin is a disease

Sorry Paidion but this scripture calls all sin a sickness:

And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” ~~ Mark 2:17

I have known alcoholics who have stopped drinking heavily, and who could still have an occasional drink without falling into heavy drinking again.

Have you known them their whole lives even to the present moment and their present lifestyle? Each of the twelve steps and traditions are designed to deflate ego and cause a psychic change. Not just stop drinking. They have a different personality. The person who works the steps and traditions has a new life. A psychic change. They undergo ego deflation and gain humility. It’s what C.S. Lewis describes:

The vice I am talking of is Pride or Self-Conceit: and the virtue opposite to it, in Christian morals, is called Humility. You may remember, when I was talking about sexual morality, I warned you that the center of Christian morals did not lie there. Well, now, we have come to the centre. According to Christian teachers, the essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind. ~~ C.S. Lewis

True alcoholics and drug addicts are the ones who hit bottom and shatter their ego where they then surrender and come to have faith in God. They are humbled under His mighty hand. They quit playing God and insisting that they should control their life. The fundamental and paradoxical premise of Twelve Step recovery is this: The more you realize your lack of control, the more powerless you discover yourself to be. The more powerless you discover yourself to be, the more natural it is to surrender to God. The more surrendered to God you become the less you struggle against the flow of life. The less you struggle against the flow of life the freer you become. It’s about freedom and regaining sanity as you become a member of society again. All of the 12 Step deflate our egos. Greater humility is the foundational principle in each and every one. The same is true of the 12 Traditions. They all aim to keep ego deflated and produce a spirit of humility which in the form of anonymity constitutes their spiritual foundation.

Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind. ~~ C.S. Lewis

[Origen]

That may be the case with some beggars. But my belief is that the majority of them cannot find work, or are poor due to other conditions that are beyond their control. We ought not to paint every needy person with the same brush. To help “the deserving poor” (as George Bernard Shaw called them) you may at times enable “the undeserving poor.” However, in order to aid the majority—“the deserving poor,” it’s worth it to take that risk.

That may be. Where I live i think some of these people would not be hired by anyone due to mental illness or other issues. Many of them are seeking money to support a drug addiction, as the area is well known for such. Some of them are homeless.

As to money, the Canadian government offers all of them “welfare” of several hundred dollars a month, for lodging & food. Additionally, there are many organizations that offer free food, clothes, medications, etc. Many Christian missions give free meals throughout the day.

[Origen]

I have known heavy drinkers or “alcoholics” (if you choose to call them that) who have made the decision to quit drinking, and have succeeded.

I used to be a heavy drinker & a light drinker. I was never addicted, so quitting was always easy & without any need for a program like AA. (OTOH, if heroin was shot into my veins, maybe that would be another story completely.) It’s been said that some people don’t have addictive personalities. Or maybe they’re makeup is such that they’re much less likely than others to become addicted to alcohol, but more likely than most to become controlled by something else, like watching porn or sports or being a kleptomaniac. Or maybe in Satan’s kingdom he forces some of his subjects to be addicted to something, e.g. alcohol, & allows others to quit it easily.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

If you put into Google “is alcoholism a disease”, you will see expert opinions - on both sides of the equation. Even Wiki covers it, in their article at Disease theory of alcoholism.

Suppose someone on the forum - said this:

“A survey of physicians at an annual conference of the International Doctors in Alcoholics Anonymous reported that 80 percent believe that alcoholism is merely bad behavior instead of a disease.[58]”

The problem is that these doctors are on the front line. More or less general practitioners. And they usually don’t know, the medical research going on. Unless they also hold PhD degrees and conduct university research.

Most likely - both are true. It fits a disease model - of both heretical and environmental factors. But it can also be overcome - at times, by methods from both psychology and spirituality.

Let’s view an interesting Q and A at:

Why Is Alcoholism Classified As A Mental Illness?

Question:
If alcoholism has a high death rate, why is it classified as a mental illness? I thought people died of physical disorders.

Answer:
They do, so alcohol combines the elements of both mental illness and physical disease. Alcoholism is classified as a substance abuse disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III). Mental and emotional symptoms of alcoholism exist long before the grave physical complications of the disease appear. The mental symptoms consist of loss of control (taking in larger amounts of alcohol over a longer period of time than the person intends); persistent desire to drink (one or more unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control drinking); continued drinking in spite of adverse social, occupational, or legal consequences; and frequent intoxication or withdrawal symptoms when expected to fulfill major obligations at work, school, or home. These are all behavioral or mental symptoms, which, unless interrupted permanently by treatment, will inevitably lead to physical complications of alcoholism. Cirrhosis of the liver, chronic brain deterioration, and other grave organic consequences occur as a result of long-term heavy drinking, but the core of the disease is the cluster of behavioral symptoms that constitute the mental disorder called alcoholism. Consequently, the treatment of alcoholism targets the mind rather than any physical system. So alcoholism and all other substance abuse disorders are mental disorders, with a high physical complication rate

But let me also quote from an article, from the

ADDICTION AS A DISEASE

ARE PEOPLE WITH ADDICTION RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS?

People with addiction should not be blamed for suffering from the disease. All people make choices about whether to use substances. However, people do not choose how their brain and body respond to drugs and alcohol, which is why people with addiction cannot control their use while others can. People with addiction can still stop using – it’s just much harder than it is for someone who has not become addicted.

People with addiction are responsible for seeking treatment and maintaining recovery. Often they need the help and support of family, friends and peers to stay in treatment and increase their chances of survival and recovery.

There is a show on TV, based upon Archie comics. And it has a darker side. There is a killer called the black hood. And he likes and calls this innocent girl, on her phone. She is addicted to this ringtone: youtu.be/3rYoRaxgOE0

And maybe things like mindfulness can help. And it doesn’t conflict with Christianity - as the Patheos evangelical article describes. And the author describes a brilliant PhD thesis:

Evangelical Christian Thoughts about “Mindfulness”

All this reminds me, of the old three stooges short. Where a rich and learned professor…was betting another rich and earned professor…on heredity vs environment. The bet was this: can the one professor, make the 3 stooges gentlemen

“We don’t need to share the same opinions as others, but we need to be respectful.”-- Taylor Swift

[St_Michael]

Randy,

Mindfulness does help. It’s also part of ACT (Acceptance Commitment Therapy). ACT has been proven scientifically and is dovetailed with the 12 steps in the workbook I have

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51lTI1Zqt5L.SX398_BO1,204,203,200.jpg

It’s also part of step 11 in A.A.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
    God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and
    the power to carry that out.

[Paidion]

Sorry Paidion but this scripture calls all sin a sickness.

And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” ~~ Mark 2:17

Yes, Michael, you quoted this earlier as a proof text that “this scripture calls all sin a sickness.” I could scarcely believe that you actually thought that this text states such. So I ignored your first quote of it as proof of your sin=sickness idea. I guess I thought your idea that the text stated all sin a sickness, would go away. But since it hasn’t, I will address the text this time.

Jesus is making and ANALOGY. He is comparing sickness to sin, in the sense that just as people who are well do not need a physician to deliver them from sickness, so righteous people do not not need Jesus to deliver them from sin. And just as sick people need a physician to deliver them from sickness, so sinners need Jesus to deliver them from sin.

[St_Michael]

And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” ~~ Mark 2:17

Jesus in the passage makes a parallel between those who are sick and those who are sinners therefore linking the two together. Jesus is called the “Great Physician” in the Bible who HEALS. We also see this connection between sin and healing in 1 Peter:

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. ~~ 1 Peter 2:24

We are healed of the sickness and disease of sin. Romans 8 tells us that the whole creation is in bondage and a slave to sin. Called by Paul “the bondage of corruption,” is subjection to decay, devastation, disease, destruction, and degradation because of sin—mankind’s sin. Indeed, all disease and degeneration are ultimately products of sin and neglect

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail. ~~ James 5:16

[St_Michael]

Jesus healed sickness and disease. Isaiah 53:5 and I Peter 2:24 do not speak of physical healing but spiritual healing. Mankind’s greatest need is for his sin sickness to be cured. Calvin said “it is certain the prophet doesn’t speak of physical illness,” The healing referred to in the texts relates to the cleansing and forgiveness of sin. In Jer. 3:22 God says He will heal faithlessness or backsliding. In the above texts the object of the word “heal” is sinners and their sins.

[Origen]

We are healed of the sickness and disease of sin. Romans 8 tells us that the whole creation is in bondage and a slave to sin. Called by Paul “the bondage of corruption,” is subjection to decay, devastation, disease, destruction, and degradation because of sin—mankind’s sin. Indeed, all disease and degeneration are ultimately products of sin and neglect

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail. ~~ James 5:16

“Sweet Hour Of Prayer”

That draws me from a world of care.
That calls me from a world of snares.

“And since He bids me seek His face,
Believe His Word and trust His grace”

library.timelesstruths.org/music … of_Prayer/

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Benny Hinn - Practices for “Waiting on the Lord”
youtube.com/watch?v=LvL17LQUYpY

[anon12438761]

From “Remarks on the Character and Writings of Fenelon” by Wm. E. Channing:

[maintenanceman]

From “Remarks on the Character and Writings of Fenelon” by Wm. E. Channing:

I read this at the precise moment I may have needed to read this. My wife and I just ‘entertained’ our five young grand children. As I relate to them and watched them I witnessed their quirks and behaviors, and once again I will say that we are a complex species. I get excited and exasperated almost at the same time. Love is the only potion that will move us through the human condition and leave us intact.

Thanks.