The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Paul's epiphanies vs Paul's philosophy


I saw this posted on Facebook. The person who posted it said it was written by Richard Murray but I can’t find its original source.

(underline added)

What do you think?


Proper protocol requires someone quoting something, to provide a link to the source. This is done - for example - with all good Wiki articles…where there are proper footnotes. I would go back, to the FaceBook author. Ask them to provide an online URL - for the source.


Thank you, qaz. I really like this thought-provoking quote, and agree with Murray’s viewpoint. This same passage is found in
God vs. Evil, by Richard K. Murray, under the heading:


on page 282 of this important free pdf book, at Murray’s site, .


Hermano, you think Paul’s opinions sometimes leaked into his epistles? I’ve always been troubled by Paul’s writing on slavery and women speaking in church. Are they God’s view, or just Paul’s opinion?

[tag]bob wilson[/tag]


qaz This is an opportunity to realize that the scriptures are historical and not necessarily written to us. There were cultural considerations and a dynamic that really does not apply to us in the 21st century, as hard as that is for fundamentalist’s to hear. :smiley: But much of what Paul wrote is relevant to us as a people and continuing cultures.


MM, what do you think of Paul saying women should keep their heads covered and hair longer than their husbands’?


Same as I think about women not speaking in the congregation. It was That time and culture and has nothing to do with us :smiley:


I hope you’re right. I plan on checking out a church tomorrow that has a woman pastor. How do you know when we are reading Paul’s private opinion as opposed to God’s view?


:mrgreen: Anything you can squeeze into… “Paul was mistaken” can be cut from the text — this type of MO seems to work for others. :laughing:


qaz, since you asked for our opinions, I will give mine. This is not only my opinion but my belief.

I believe that Paul was inspired by God to give the instructions that he gave to the church, and yes, I believe, along with millions of others that Christian women should not cut their hair. Even most non-Christian men prefer the appearance of women with long hair.

Also, Paul doesn’t say that women should keep their heads covered, but rather to cover their heads when praying or prophesying. It is symbolic of each woman being under the authority of her husband. It is ironic that in Judaism, it is the man who covers her head, while the woman’s head is uncovered. Paul certainly understood the new Christian order.

As for slavery, it wasn’t that Paul was advocating slavery, but he was giving instructions to make the best of a system that was already deeply entrenched into the culture of the day.

Paul wasn’t against sisters speaking per se in a Christian meeting, but was opposed to their teaching men or taking authority over them, or chatting during the meeting, thereby disturbing what God was doing. I have seen this happen.


Paidion, then you and I disagree on a lot. I don’t see anything immoral about a woman having short hair or a man having long hair. Nor do I see anything wrong with females teaching males. How does having a vagina delegitimize a person’s words? What is it about having a penis that makes a person’s words worthy of esteem? Regarding slavery, you say Paul “was giving instructions to make the best of a system that was already deeply entrenched into the culture of the day.”. The same exact thing could be said of fornication, yet that didn’t stop Paul from repeatedly condemning it.


Well, I will reiterate myself that this is a historical /cultural view. Christian heck ALL women can wear their hair however they like. They are now (thank God) able to speak in the assemblies, and your understanding of

is interesting and a very cultural position. At the end of the day if you believe that the Holy Spirit is given to men and women equally then we should maybe engage in the thinking that both men and women are totally equal in receiving the holy spirits guidance and have just as much stock in what God is saying. :open_mouth:

Your move.


qaz you just go to this church and just listen and absorb… God will lead you. Peace my friend. Love you.


I have stated my position. I have no more moves.


Thanks Paidion, I appreciate your candor. :slight_smile:


MM,I agree, as it says in Genesis 1:27-28 "So God created man in his own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and god said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion…”

Also Genesis 2:24 says this: “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”

Many try to point to Genesis 3:16, which says, “your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” in order to support their belief that God gave men authority over women. However, I don’t think this was the case at all. I believe this verse is talking about not letting our desires for ungodly things get out of control. They will rule over us.
This is also spoken of in the following verses,
Genesis 4:7 “if you do not do well, sin lies at the door, and it’s desire is for you, but should rule over it.”
Ephesians 5:7 'Let no one deceive you with empty words for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them."
1Cor 6:16-17 "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said “the two shall become one flesh.”

As Jesus said, we should not lord over one another. I believe men and women are to be equal in power, and if one should have authority over the other, it would be a case of being unequally yoked.


Davo, what do you think of Paul’s statements on hair length, women being silent in church, and slavery?


If you had lived in the apostle Paul’s day, he would have had a word for you.


Yes sir total craziness as it applies to us today. Why Don are you stirring up stuff that applied to a group of people from a couple of thousand of years ago :blush:


It can’t be TOTALLY crazy, since in several Christian groups, Paul’s words are presently taken to heart in a practical way.