The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Penal Substitution & Universalism

Theology Soteriology
#81

That’s the first time I have heard about any skepticism about the veracity of his account. He was a Jewish general turned Roman historian and only mentions Jesus in passing while describing the murder of James (our Lord’s brother) by throwing him off the temple roof as the pivot point in the rebellion against Rome starting up in the 3 1/2 year run up to the desolation of the temple. He went on to write other Roman histories as well.

Plunder from Jerusalem (and gold from the Temple roof) paid for the building of Coliseum in Rome - work began in 70ad.

Now back to Bob’s claim that God’s wrath is common and pervasive and still in effect. When I read in Revelation that the survivors (the ones who listened and fled!) of the desolation sing a song that no other generation can even learn, that also tells me of the one time (done and finished) nature of the wrath poured out in 70ad to fulfill scripture. His wrath is uncommon, pervasive only in regards to Israel in 70ad, and is not in effect.

The Jerusalem (Jewish) Church was the ONLY generation of believers both under His wrath and under the cross. That makes for a very unique ‘song’. So to maintain that God is both filled with wrath at mankind and at the same time reconciled with mankind in regards to every other generation since - is a nonsense argument. Total nonsense and arrogant to boot.

#82

Ran, I think Jeff makes a good and widely acknowledged point. But I again take it that you are answering a noteworthy “yes” to my two questions about grasping your interpretation (now reprinted 3x: that apostolic cautions to churchmen who live unfaithful to the Gospel and may thus face God’s judgment and wrath are irrelevant for those (1) living away from Jerusalem, as well as (2) Christian readers after 70 AD). Thanks for making your assumptions so clear.

#83

Neither of those two groups were among the elect Jews in Israel, and particularly in Jerusalem, called out to flee that wrath from the generation who murdered Christ. They fled because they believed Matt 24;34 was aimed at them, not another far-flung, distant group. Them. If they didn’t flee it was because they didn’t believe and were crushed in 70ad.

Likewise, the use of ‘election’ pertains only to that group - otherwise, in every other place and time - it’s: ‘whosoever may come.’ Paul to the greek Timothy: ‘Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.’

#84

Which other interpreters read such a consistent pattern of apostolic warnings about how believers live a life of holy love as *only

  • addressed to “elect Jews, and particularly in Jerusalem”?

To my knowledge, the consensus is wide that such admonitions were addressed as universally relevant for believers, Gentile as well as Jew, during “this present evil age.”

#85

Key word ‘present’ - for Paul! When did Paul warn Timothy to flee Jerusalem when he’s 800 miles away in sunny Greece? If the warnings are universally relevant, where does Timothy flee from? Athens? Why? Same goes for the opening of Revelation - ‘I’m writing to tell you what will soon happen.’ Soon? 2000 or 20,000 years later???

To be a Christian and not know history is to be at the mercy of every other gospel out there.

#86

Ran Ran: “When did Paul warn Timothy to flee Jerusalem when he’s 800 miles away in sunny Greece? If the warnings are universally relevant, where does Timothy flee from? Athens? Why?”

Bob: I’m lost! You seem to ridicule as “arrogant,” ideas that I’ve never heard anyone espouse. Where did I, or does anyone, say that all the apostolic warnings about how Christians live are about “Timothy,” or his need to change geography? Or about the need to flee Athens? Or about Jerusalem? Where does Paul even define the evil world we groan to be delivered from as only about fears of God’s wrath in one particular past event for Jews?

I’m afraid the more you clarify the way that you read such passages about godliness, the more incredulous I am about your interpretation, as out of step with the plain and universal meaning of such texts. Across the board, whether they are interpreted by secular scholars, conservative Christians, or more liberal students, to my knowledge, nobody but you finds such a unique and narrow meaning in them.

#87

You need to get out more. As a Lutheran, we believe in objective justification - we’re all forgiven - objective fact. As a preterist, that God’s wrath was poured out in 70ad. Done deal. No more wrath nor mandate for it.

Neither of those are small groups, but both make a lot more sense than the ‘God is still filled with wrath but reconciled when we reconcile Him’ or however that bunch of gobble-de-gook goes group you seem to represent. You have your wrath - I’ll take the Gospel. I can’t MAKE you think. I’m still trying to figure out the basis for your universalism - does God pour out enough wrath and torture on people that they finally start liking it?

#88

Brother Ran, are we not blessed to be retired and free to quickly repond about theology! I love your first point since my interaction with Lutherans has been frequent and fruitful. Indeed, my most influential current books are by Lutheran N.T. prof, Dr. David Brondos (“Paul on the Cross” and “Fortress Introduction to Salvation”–tho I’m afraid he finds that the consistent Biblical theme is that our redemption has a future component and is not yet fully realized).

But I am intrigued with your assertion that many hold with you that our frequently cited “godliness passages” with the apostles’ admonitions to avoid God’s judgment are irrelevant for church folk. I’m anxous to really think. Please help me to get out and grasp more than my “gobble-de-gook goes group” by soon providing me the authors & titles of the main theological treatises that share your advocacy of this .

#89

Bob, I’m not retired but I am free. I may be homeless soon given this Michigan economy. But, hey, on to the next adventure. There is nothing not yet fully realized - don’t get taken in by the deserving workaholics. The gates above Auschwitz read “Work is Freedom” theologically, that’s a mere step above, 'Abandon all hope, yea who enter here" just a mincing words. Enjoy the ‘gospel’ you etch above your gates.

The entire world of man is in Christ now, as they were in Adam. That’s why we are all going to be resurrected. We are the most beautiful of creatures ever (or ever will be) created in His image. Fallible, flawed but like Him, so that He would even preach to us in the place of dead. Every human being is precious and now immortal - which is fitting for His image.

The ontological change in man has occurred. And there’s not a damn thing we can do about it. We will worship mankind’s hero with all our hearts because He has saved us - both from death and ourselves. The resurrection of mankind looms even for the prideful who think they deserve it. ‘The last will be first.’ It’s going to be a strange parade and don’t assume your place in it. I’m not. God loves mankind.

Bob, take your wrath and shove it - because it’s all your own, not God’s. Try being homeless and loving God. In your world, misfortune is wrath - you didn’t grab enough soon enough. Mother Theresa is listening. Your turn.

#90

Wow! WHICH LINE gave it away :astonished: , that “torture” is where my trust is at? How did I presume that my paper presenting Scriptures about a loving God as the basis for universalism and a non-violent atonement would cleverly disguise my vicious view? How did you see through me and expose my true perversity**?**

Some say “it takes one to know one.” Could it be that your insight that God has a need to propitiate his anger by torturing and abandoning his Beloved Son, as well as violently venting its’ wrath on Jews and Jerusalem, enables you to find that my own confidence is in such vindictive retribution**?**

Ran, I’m afraid my real perverity is pushing the buttons of your wrath. If I have, I hope you can find grace to forgive me. I’m also sorry I presumed you were retired, and to learn that you are without employment. I know that can be painful and I understand Michigan’s economy is far worse even than the Inland Empire here in California. I’ve been without work and without my home for several years.

I’m afraid I’ve failed to convey a clear view of my own faith, but I am deeply glad that you share in a rich hope. You are more than right that we share in the ceaseless love of a great hero. I am grateful to you for providing a human face in the midst of our invigorating theological back and forth. In all honesty, while you can see that I formulate the Biblical message in different words and love to debate, your own way of strongly affirming that God’s love has secured grace and blessing for everyone of his beloved is grand, and in my view far superior to 99% of the perspectives and attitudes that I observe in the Christian world.

Grace be with you, Bob

#91

Thanks for the nice post, Bob.

God did not torture His Son - we did. God did abandon His Son to death and said so. He did violently vent His stored up wrath and vengeance on the Jews and Jerusalem (not mankind in general) - He said he would do that and we have a record that He did do that and on His timetable. That needed to happen and, indeed, had to happen because ‘all scripture must be fulfilled.’

Death is not wrath - it’s the separation of spirit and body. Christ has fixed that ‘unnatural condition’ and considers it man’s last enemy which He conquered.

God is not angry now - both because His wrath has been poured out and His justice is satisfied by the removal of sin by His Son. So we see both the end of His anger and the removal of it’s cause.

#92

I really appreciated your reply and clarifications. Your distinction between our torturing and God’s is a huge common ground (also your distinction between death and wrath). Maybe our other difference about God’s presence at the cross is semantic. I do see God surrendered or “gave up” Jesus to death, but for the same reasons as Jason I wouldn’t put it that the Biblical thrust is that he “abandoned” Jesus. I see the Biblical context of Jesus’ “forsaken” quotation as one not to be ignored. Again, FWIW, when I say that the word, “wrath,” conveys God’s opposition to evil, I don’t think of God as a torturer, or as one who needs to deal with “anger” (perhaps because I associate anger with a problematic human emotion).

Your line that “God’s justice is satisfied by the removal of sin” is word for word the theme of my paper on atonement that you responded to. But I do perceive that we see the cross’s role in the removal of sin differently. Since you said I was wrong that we remain in “this evil age,” does it follow that you think sin and evil are now only illusions? In my perception, even some of our economic travail could involve the reality that sin and greed continue to be forces during the age of “this world.” So, most important, in what sense do you think there has been a “removal of sin”?

All the best to you,
Bob

#93

In the sense that sin and evil are not eternal. Yes. Goodness and love are real and everlasting because that’s what God is. Heaven is real and we will be real but sin and evil will be gone - there never was any substance to evil, except by comparison.

Sin and evil is ‘real’ to us now, just as our forgiveness is real - not an illusion - but a time will come when both sin and evil will go ‘poof’ along with our guilt which can seem very real at times.

#94

Yes, I like your language and could use the same words. Though what Christians would disagree that evil is not as eternal as God? I also agree that “evil is real for us now.” Thus as I inquired above, I am a crazy minority skeptical that the Biblical language is that the cross means “sin has already been removed,” or that it was a transaction that changed the ontological nature of God or humanity or the universe. If you mean that the cross “demonstrates” that God loves us, and assures our faith that He forgives us, and ultimately as you say “a time will come” when evil is removed, that would be my language. What more does it mean that God is already satisfied that sin has been removed? My impression is that we and God look forward to the day when sin is no longer real, and is in every sense removed.

#95

Ontologically, both God and mankind has been changed. Past tense.

God has a body now - a human resurrected body. Big change.

Mankind, on the other hand, finds itself in the first of the resurrected - Christ. Whereas, previously, mankind was in Adam - sinning and being given (abandoned) over to death from which there was no escape. That’s a huge ontological change for mankind and it became a reality the moment Christ was resurrected. Just as Adam was not and then he was. i.e. a fiat.

As far as the universe goes, and if there are other human beings on other planets, the word will surely go there - perhaps delivered by us!

#96

Yes, I must admit that your view that the Bible is about an ontological change in God (and us), is held by the overwhelming majority of Christians with which I converse! I frankly find little support for my own sense that God’s nature and loving character toward humanity is fundamentally steady.

Still, however they understand such a ‘change’ or transaction, I think the majority of Bible students agree with my larger point that it views us as now remaining in a condition of looking forward to that day you mentioned when evil and sin is fully removed in actuality. My own impression is that nothing less than that is the ‘justice’ or “righteousness” that fully ‘satisfies’ God. Maranatha!

#97

Just a reminder that I believe orthodoxy is completely missing the real picture and true meaning of the good news. Christ is symbolic of all mankind. The penalty of eating from the tree is the death which now is manifest in the earth (ie: expulsion from paradise and separation from the conscious presence of God). All God’s waves and billows (wrath) pass over the son of man for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The resurrection is awakening from that death into the paths of life.

Ps. 16:11 You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

#98

If Christ were to return today - we would all be changed instantaneously. In the ‘twinkling of eye’ as Paul put it. So to say that sin is not totally removed because people continue to sin is to miss what has happened. Christ has taken away the sins of the world and is not counting mankind’s sins against them. What can we possibly provide in that instant, that hasn’t already been provided? Christ’s righteousness for our sins. How does one improve upon that trade?

So to say that sin is not actually removed is to say that Christ was not actually sacrificed and making Him the illusion and not sin itself. Nothing can harm us - He speaks often to us as though we were already resurrected.

‘Where there is no law, there is no sin.’ That’s a reminder of the illusionary quality of sin. If you look at Christ’s depiction of the Judgment (Matt 25) - it’s not about sin, it’s not about faith, it’s in how we advanced His Kingdom - cups of water given or not given.

#99

Ran, I think we differ on how to balance Paul’s past and yet future tense accounts of salvation. I agree that “nothing (ultimately) can harm us,” and that in God our salvation is secure. But based I think on Pauline language, you again suggest that evil now is “illusionary” and oppose me in saying that God’s righteousness remains to be completed, or that “sin is not already totally removed.” But you seem to favor selected verses over others (at least after AD 70).

You say that God “trades” “Christ’s righteousness for our sins.” Yet you rightly cite Jesus’ words that we will be judged according to whether our love “advanced God’s kingdom.” Indeed, He also says, “I have not come to abolish the law,” for until "your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes, you can’t enter God’s kingdom… If you want to enter eternal life, keep God’s commands (Matt. 19:16f; 16:27).

It appears to me that Paul lines up with Jesus: “God will repay everyone according to what they have done… Those who persist in doing good… He will give eternal life… It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous!” (Rom. 2:6-13). “Keeping God’s commands is what counts… Wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 7:19; 6:9).

This kind of consistent theme in 100’s of passages makes me uncomfortable with saying that Paul’s glorious past tense affirmations mean that nothing more is vital to be accomplished, or that since the cross & 70AD, God is satisfied with Christ’s goodness in place of working that out in our lives as we “advance God’s kingdom.” Neither Paul nor Jesus give me the impression that there is a substitute for that.

#100

To all: God is not holding anyone’s wrongdoings against them. He ONLY seeks to disperse darkness with light. The wrath and atonement and punishment threads proved this as no one could give me one definitive answer as to how God is punishing humans. Except that they were just sure that sometimes it is definitely God wrathing people when things go really wrong (!). Except of course, that He also blesses the unjust as well as the just. :confused:

How can anyone follow such an ambiguous system :question:

To Ranran: You (of all people) are waiting for Christ’s return? As hard as it is bro. we need to let go of fairytale solutions in favor of God’s present reality. Taking this literalistic approach to the resurrection will get mankind nowhere. The path of life. That’s what it’s all about.

You are right - God speaks to us as if we are already resurrected. There’s a reason for that :wink: The night was far spent - the day was at hand in Paul’s day. YOU KNOW THIS! You are so close but keep coming up against this wall of orthodoxy and literalism.

To all: There is no ‘sin’ people. The law was feeble and weak (through the flesh) and so passed away with the announcement of a ‘better hope’ (vast understatement). The only judgement is to judge our egos DEAD because of sin and our spirits ALIVE unto God because of (His) righteousness - end of story. All else is senseless struggle, dead religion and madness.

Faith comes alive causing you to believe this truth and then you will experience the fullness of resurrection (escape from the lie of separation which is spiritual death).

Joy unspeakable and full of glory.