The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Personal testimonies regarding UR

Hi Firedup,

As you know, we should always allow Scripture to interpret itself. In most of the verses in which the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) is referred to in the OT, it is to be understood in its literal sense. But in Jeremiah 19 (cf. 7:30-34) we read that, by God’s authority, the Valley of Hinnom – which was also known as “Topheth” (v. 6) - was made a metaphor or symbol for national judgment upon Israel (v. 12). Other than its literal and emblematic meaning, no other meaning is ever attached to this word in the inspired Scriptures. Because Christ gives no indication of introducing a new metaphorical meaning to a word whose meaning had long ago been fixed by his own inspired Scriptures, I submit that whenever Christ employs “Gehenna” in a non-literal sense, he is ascribing to it the same metaphorical meaning that was assigned to it by God in Jeremiah’s day.

Just as in Jeremiah’s day, a severe judgment upon the nation of Israel was looming over the horizon when Christ spoke these words to his disciples (Matthew 23:32-36 cf. 1 Thess 2:15-16; Isaiah 65:6-7). Christ refers to this approaching judgment upon that generation as their being sentenced to “Gehenna” (i.e., the Valley of Hinnom). Any Jew familiar with their Hebrew Scriptures would have understood Jesus’ words to be a warning of an impending national judgment, because it is this of which “Gehenna” (or “Topheth,” which was a location within this valley) had become an emblem. This national judgment fell upon the Jewish people at the climax of the Jewish-Roman war in 70 A.D., when the Roman army (led by General Titus) sacked the city of Jerusalem and utterly destroyed the temple. More than a million Jews perished during this violent overthrow of the Jewish nation, while thousands more were forced into exile.

It is significant that the first time Christ speaks of Gehenna is in Matt 5:22. However, neither Christ nor the Gospel writer gives any explanation of the word, which (being an OT word with meaning already attached to it) strongly suggests that those familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures would be able to figure out what Christ is talking about without doing any speculation or extra-biblical research. The verse reads, “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the Gehenna of fire.” Here we see that one who is angry with his brother would be liable to judgment (which is likely a reference to the council of twenty three magistrates), while whoever insults his brother would be liable to the council (i.e., the Sanhedrin). Thus far, both of these are examples of some form of temporal judgment with which Jesus’ disciples would have been familiar. But according to the “orthodox” understanding of “Gehenna,” those who call someone a “fool” are liable not to an even more severe temporal punishment (which would make sense in the context), but to never-ending torment in a future state of existence! But there is simply no Scriptural evidence that this is what Jesus was talking about when he made reference to “Gehenna” - and his use of the word elsewhere is in direct opposition to such a view. For example, in Matthew 23:32-36 Christ is referring to a national judgment that was soon to fall upon the generation in which he lived:

“Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to Gehenna? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.”

And immediately after pronouncing these woes upon that corrupt generation, Christ goes on (to the end of this chapter on into the next) to speak of the national judgment that God was about to bring upon unbelieving Israel.

But what of the expression, “destroy body and soul?” Answer: The word here translated “soul” (psuche) is never said or implied in Scripture to refer to an immortal part of man’s nature, and unless this verse is the single exception, the word is never used to denote a part of man that can exist in a disembodied state after death. Far from teaching this, the word psuche is being employed by Christ in the same sense that the word is used in Matthew 2:10: “They are dead which sought the young child’s life” (psuche). But did they seek the “immortal soul” of Jesus? No; psuche refers to natural life - i.e., that which must be sustained by food and water.

In Matthew 6:25, Jesus states: “Therefore, I tell you, do not be anxious about your life (psuche), what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life (psuche) more than food, and the body more than clothing?”

Both here and in Matthew 10:28, psuche simply denotes the natural, biological life of a person (which must be sustained by food and water), while soma is being employed by Christ to refer to a person’s physical frame (which can be clothed or stripped naked). With this contrast kept in mind, there is a sense in which one’s “body” (as distinguished from one’s life) can be “killed” without one’s life being “killed” as well. In the former case, severe bodily harm may be inflicted, while the person’s life is spared. But in the latter case, it is the life itself upon which harm is inflicted, which can only result in the total destruction of the person. Thus, when soma (i.e., the physical frame of a person) and psuche (a person’s natural life) are distinguished, the body may be spoken of as being “killed” or “destroyed” without one’s life being “killed” or “destroyed” as well. That this is indeed the case will be even more evident when we consider the first time the expression “destroy both body and soul” is used in Scripture.

There is no indication that Christ’s disciples misunderstood what he meant by the destruction of “soul and body” in Gehenna." This is evident, because when they did not comprehend his meaning on other occasions, we find them making all the necessary inquiries. But here, they made none. From this single circumstance it is evident that they did not learn the meaning of this expression from Jesus, but that it was instead a common expression and proverb of that day. To speak of “soul and body” being “destroyed” was evidently a common Jewish expression with which Christ’s disciples were well acquainted.

By comparing this verse with Isaiah 10:16-18 (where we find God threatening a national judgment against Assyria, after having judged Israel), we can see that it was used as a proverbial expression denoting the total destruction of anything to which it was applied:

“Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors, and under his glory a burning will be kindled, like the burning of fire. The light of Israel will become a fire, and his Holy One a flame, and it will burn and devour his thorns and briers in one day. The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land the LORD will destroy, both soul and body, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away.” Isaiah 10:16-18

Here, it is applied to the destruction of the glory of the king of Assyria’s “forest and fruitful land.” The literal meaning of the expression “destruction of soul and body,” however, evidently refers to that which takes place when “a sick man wastes away.” This agrees with our observation that the “body” could be spoken of as being “killed” (or in this case, “destroyed”) without the “soul,” or life, necessarily being “killed” (or “destroyed”) as well. But when a sick man “wastes away,” his condition is such that both his life and his physical frame are progressively “destroyed” by the illness. Thus, whether this expression is understood figuratively (as applied to the judgment of a nation) or literally (as applied to a man “wasting away” because of a disease), the expression has nothing to do with the punishment of so-called “immortal souls” in a “disembodied” state of existence.

So what is Jesus saying in the verses under consideration? Understood in the larger context of Matthew 10:16-23, Jesus’ words “kill the body” refers to what the Jewish persecutors of the early Christian church were allowed to do (i.e., inflict bodily punishment on people in the synagogues, without actually taking their lives - cf. John 18:31), in contrast to what the Roman authorities could legally do to law-breakers (i.e., execute them, thus destroying them “body and soul,” or “body and life”), and indeed did end up doing to the unbelieving people of Israel when they put an end to the Jewish rebellion in 70 AD. While countless Jews were slaughtered by the Roman army when the nation of Israel was overthrown, Christ’s obedient and watchful followers escaped this fearful calamity by heeding his words to flee the city of Jerusalem and the surrounding area when God gave them the opportunity (Matt 24:15-20; cf. Luke 21:20-21). In this way, God protected the early Christians from being destroyed “both body and soul” when he brought judgment upon the corrupt nation of Israel through the instrumentality of the Roman army.

It may be objected that this interpretation of Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 demands that the word “kill” (apokteino) be understood in a limited sense. Such an objection is invalid, however. It is evident that soma is being used in a limited sense in Matt 6:25, which is, notably, the only other verse where Christ distinguishes between soma and psuche. Now, if Christ was employing the word soma in Matt 6:25 to embrace every aspect of a person’s self from a physical, biological standpoint, then that which Christ says is sustained by food and drink (the psuche) in Matt 6:25 would necessarily be included in this general, inclusive meaning - for food and drink is necessary to keep our bodies (in the fullest sense of the word) alive. That is, soma, when used in a general sense, necessarily includes that aspect of us which Christ implies is sustained by food and drink, as well as that aspect of us which may be clothed or stripped naked. But because Christ distinguishes between the words soma and psuche by limiting soma to that which may be clothed and stripped naked, and excluding from the meaning of the word that aspect of us which is sustained by food and drink, soma must be understood in a limited sense. Thus, it is not so much apokteino (“kill”) that is to be understood as denoting less than its usual meaning, but soma. In this context, it refers to the outward frame of a person’s body (i.e., that which is clothed), not the body in its entirety.

Moreover, the very fact that soma and psuche are distinguished by Christ in Matt 10:28 (and by implication, in Luke 12:4-5, which is undoubtedly a parallel account) makes it an exception to how the words are used throughout Scripture. The only other place in the NT where psuche is distinguished from soma is in 1 Thess 5:23. But here, pnuema (“spirit”) is distinguished from both soma and psuche - a fact which weakens, or at least renders problematic, any argument that psuche (when distinguished from soma) denotes some aspect of man’s nature that continues to exist in a disembodied state after death. And Matthew 10:28 (and again, Luke 12:4-5 by implication) is also the only example in the NT where soma is spoken of as being able to be killed or destroyed apart from psuche, or life, necessarily being killed or destroyed as well. This, too, forces us to understand Christ’s use of psuche and apokteino in Matt 10:28 as being exceptions to how the terms are used throughout the NT.

The fact that there is only one other example in all of Scripture in which “body and soul” are spoken of as being “destroyed” (Isaiah 10:16-18), is reason enough for this example to be taken into consideration when seeking to interpret Matthew 10:28 and its parallel in Luke 12. And when we do that, it becomes clear that for body and soul to be “destroyed” is equivalent to what happens when “a sick man wastes away.” Thus, any objection to the word “kill” being understood in a limited sense in Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 on the grounds that it would be an exception to the rule overlooks the following facts: 1) that soma is clearly being used in a limited sense in Matthew just four chapters back, 2) that Christ’s distinguishing between soma and psuche is itself an exception to how the words are used throughout Scripture, 3) that psuche is being used by Christ as the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew nephash, which nowhere denotes that which is popularly thought of as the “immortal soul”; and 4) that the only other example in Scripture where “body and soul” are said to be “destroyed” is in Isaiah 10:16-18, which provides no support for (and is in fact against) the traditional understanding of Matt 10:28.

Uh huh… :laughing: :unamused: :laughing:

Thanks Aaron for your thorough reply. I will definitely keep this in mind as I study.

I’ll keep Aaron37’s, no doubt kind and well-intentioned (right?), jab-via-smiley at Sherman & Jason in mind as well.

I read somewhere that Edwards, when he was young, believed that eternal torment was a terrible doctrine, until he had a ‘conversion experience’ as a young man that convinced him that it is good and glorifying to God.

Personally I think I’d rather be like Rachel–“weeping for her children, and refusing to be comforted.” The idea that I might become resigned to or even celebratory over my children’s unending and hopeless torment is abhorrent to me–evil.

Now, there’s something that has always puzzled me about Calvinist doctrine… what good is it to ‘fight’ for someone’s salvation if it’s already been decided by God through election?

I’m convinced that our experiential reality–that is God’s creation–is designed and constructed as it is in order to teach and reveal truths to us about the ultimate reality that lies hidden. Thus, Paul writes in Romans 1 that men are without excuse, because the attributes of God are revealed to us that which has been made. Things like being a child, or having a child, teach us about God’s relationship to us, as our ulitmate Father, and our relationship to him as His created children.

Or, perhaps, “What kind of monstrous deception have we fallen prey to?” Satan still wins, for in the traditional teaching we have not been released from fear–not if we really love as we are called to by our Lord.

Now, when I got to this point in my reply, your first sentence in the above quote especially caught my attention and gave me something to think about–I’ve been mulling it over for a couple of days. How are we to understand this idea of loving Christ more than all else? What does it mean to ‘love Christ’? Can the love of Christ be separated from the love we bear toward others?

Jesus says “Whatever you do to the least of these, you do also to Me.” He says, "If you love me, you will obey my commands…and this is my command: “That you love one another as I have loved you.” When Jesus asks Peter, “Do you love me?” His following command is “feed my sheep.” God’s interests are closely tied to the interests of those He loves. He says, “Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do also to me.” John writes that if we do not love our brother whom we see, how can we love God, whom we do not see? If Jesus cares more for our loved ones than we do, we can trust Him to take good care of them. But we must trust him to know best.

So then, I ask, “What would it look like to love someone more than Christ?” It seems like that would mean compromising the truth Christ teaches us, in order to follow that person’s beliefs instead. If I was a Jew living in the times of the early church, it might mean maintaining Jewish law and tradition in order to please my family, instead of trusting for salvation by faith. Today, a personal example might be that of giving up my faith in God and conviction of His purpose of reconciling all people to himself, and ‘going with the flow’ of condemning others to unending torment, in order to avoid censure and condemnation by the traditionalists in my life. Or, if I love my child more than Christ, I might hate the teacher who treats my child badly, instead of forgiving her and loving her as Christ would have me love my enemy. Or, if I loved Aaron37 more than Christ, I would repudiate UR and allow him to teach me his version of ‘truth.’ :sunglasses:

I relate to this very much. Before I understood the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation, my outlook on life was charactarized by a general melancholy and sense of tragedy. My mom’s side of the family are all Chinese, immigrated from Taiwan when she was about 20, and Christianity is pretty much a foreign religion to them. I’ve been saved since I was 6 or 7, so I was faced early in life with the idea that my mom and all my aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandparents on that side of my family were in danger of hell. And, being a serious, reflective type of child, I did take the reality of hell very seriously. No wonder I was deeply depressed for much of my life. But I didn’t, at the time,associate my depression with my concept of hell. I always felt guilty for my lack of joy–joy is supposed to be a distinguishing mark of a Christian. Now that I understand the extent of God’s love and salvation, joy is my norm.

For me, it was by accident that I stumbled on a link in an internet search (for something else entirely!) that claimed that there was no Hell. I laughed, and having idle time on my hands, I clicked over to see what kind of absurd argument they were going to present, and to give myself the pleasure of an easy ‘debunk.’ LOL To my amazement, they actually presented some compelling evidence–enough to set a spark of hope smouldering in me, and set me off on a several months long journey of prayer and Bible study, like I’d never studied before. Six hours a day or more, most days. Once the idea was planted I couldn’t rest till I was sure one way or another. I had to know.

What I found was that the UR paradigm makes much more sense to me in the overall context of scripture than any other. It solved a lot of ‘mysteries’ and inconsistancies that had always bothered me in a ‘back-of-the-mind nagging’ sort of way.

I could write a lot more–but I’ll leave it there for now. I’ve been picking away at this reply for a few days, and want to get it posted. :wink:

Sonia

Moderation
Deletion of completely unacceptable post according to the Board Rules.

A,
Is this supposed to be a comment on my post? Or what? Which seducing and lying spirits exactly are you talking about, and would you like to specify which ‘tickling doctrines’ we should ‘guard are hearts’ from? And who here do you consider to be the ‘spiritually weak’ that you are addressing your warning to?

Sonia

That’s why I don’t listen to anything you say.

I’ve foreseen that it’ll be the most conservative fundamentalists who will fall the fastest. Just look at the oldest denominations; they’ve become the first to go.

I’ll stick with the truth that has been revealed to me, thanks, and not listen to the vain opinions of man. When the chips fall, that’s what we’ll all have to account for anyway - our personal beliefs, not the beliefs of others.

There is a darkness that is coming, and only the mind of Christ can perceive it. All of these new and scary movements are only foreshadowings, but even the events they are setting the stage for are only the shadow of Christ Himself coming back in His fullest glory. He will swallow up everything, every doctrine and supposed revelation, and be seen as the Answer to every question humankind has ever thought to ask. And these questions must be answered.

See, Aaron? I can prophesy, too! :wink: Now here’s the clincher - which of us is prophesying correctly? http://brainsandcareers.com/phpBB3/images/smilies/icon_thinking.gif

Preemptive Moderator Warning

Do not taunt people who get posts deleted by moderators. Even if the taunt in some sense might be just, it’s not allowed on the board, regardless if moderators missed deleting other taunts.

No, a comment in general. God warns Christians in the end times of the body of Christ being seduced by doctrines of devils which will tickle the ears of many. Just repeating what God said, thats all. :smiley: The warning is to the body of Christ. :wink: Notice I addressed my post with “Everyone” and not a specific person. I was not responding to a particular post or I would of quoted that post and responded to it. :wink:

So, you’re saying it was just a random post with no relevance to anything currently being discussed here? :confused:

It was a warning to the body of Christ as it is written in the word of God. That is why I addressed it “Everyone”.

Adding a bit more on my quest to find the truth of universalism…

The most pressing matter to be ascertained in my mind was whether or not scripture would allow a universalistic interpretation, and secondly, to determine if the UR reading was more plausable than what I understood at the time.

The very first questions I considered when looking into UR, were:

  1. What does scripture actually say about Hell?
  2. Must the Greek word ‘aionios’ always be properly translated as ‘eternal’?

The answers I came up with, in short were:

  1. Almost nothing.
  2. No.

It’s difficult for me to reconstruct exactly all the mental processes I followed then–I’m not a very systematic thinker :blush: and it’s going on 5 years ago or so. But I found a whole paradigm change was necessary for me. The gospel, as I understood it, was about salvation from eternal damnation in Hell. If Hell was not what I had understood it to be, then what are we saved from??? If something as fundamental to Christianity as the nature of Hell was incorrect, what else in my world view was also wrong? These and other questions had to be dealt with. A lot of subtle and not so subtle changes of belief were necessary.

Everything I believed became suspect, and subject to questioning and study–and actually I’m still in the process of evaluating and re-evaluating everything I believe. Coming to understand UR was an extremely humbling experience for me–and I rejoice in it constantly–but I have also become aware that the scope of reality is much larger than I had previously understood, and I am much less confident in the completeness of my own understanding of it–though I also feel at the same time that my understanding has dramatically increased. It feels a lot like moving from a geocentric idea of the universe to a heliocentric one. The scale has become infinitely grander.

One thing I am convinced of is that God’s plan of salvation is universal in scope and that He fully intends to accomplish it. That is the prophetic fact that has changed my ideas of the magnitude of the love of God, has given me a greater love for humanity, has given me a gospel that I can share and rejoice in with all my heart.

Sonia

Sonia

Are you saying Hell doesn’t exist? Hmmm. If so… I believe your mentors will disgree with you on that one, sister. I wonder if your mentors will try to correct you on this or just allow you to remain in this wrong belief? :wink:

Watch your tongue about prophetic facts young lady. :smiley: Oh, the beauty of sentimentalism :wink:

Aaron__ ,

Thank you again for your thorough reply (at the top of this webpage). The use of body and soul in Matthew 6:25 particularly interesting and does seem to shed light on Matthew 10:28.

According to your interpretation it would seem that we can rephrase Matthew 10:28 as:

And do not fear {the Jews who are only allowed to only harm the} body, but are not able to {take your life}. But rather fear {the Romans} who can {take your life as well as harm your} body {in the burning trash heap outside Jerusalem} or {when they come to destroy Jerusalem in the near future}] .

Early in your post you state that the first century Jews considered Gehenna to be an emblem for national judgment. However, in a few other reference materials I’ve looked at, it is indicated that the first century Jews saw it as an emblem for final judgment, though perhaps not everlasting. Can you point to any other reference materials that would back up your view?

Also, are you saying that the astute first century listener would have actually interpreted Jesus words in Matthew 10:28 as a prophecy of the events that would occur in A.D. 70?

Your comments about Matthew 5:22 are intriguing. However, they leave me wondering:

In Matthew 5:22, if Gehenna is referring to the destruction of A.D. 70, why would saying “You fool!” make somebody subject to such destruction? Similarly, in Matthew 5:27-30, why would looking at a woman lustfully cause you to be subject to the destruction of A.D. 70? Such thinking makes me wonder if the Romans had a squad of people patrolling the streets to make sure nobody said insulting words or gave women lustful looks. I’m left wondering if I should tip my hat to the Romans regard for personal morality. Of course, this picture of the aftermath of the Roman conquest is ridiculous, but it seems to be forced by your interpretation of Gehenna.

Firedup, FYI, I just want to give you some background on Aaron’s beliefs. Love ya, brother! :wink:

  1. Does not believe Jesus came in the flesh. ( this belief is warned about in 1 John 4:1-3 ; 2 John 7-11)
  2. Denies the diety of Jesus.
  3. Denies who Jesus says he was and what he did on the cross.
  4. Spreads the false doctrine of Preterism.
  5. His beliefs mirror Gnosticism.
  6. Denies the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit representing one God in three persons.
  7. God knows what else…I’m sure I left some out.

Hi Firedup,

Or, instead of “the Romans,” the one who “can destroy both body and life in Gehenna” should perhaps be better understood as referring to Titus, the military commander (and later Roman emperor) who led the Roman siege against Jerusalem and crushed the Jewish rebellion.

I believe the first century Jews ought to have considered Gehenna to be an emblem for national judgment against Israel, based on what we read in Jeremiah. Whether they actually did or not, I’m not entirely sure. If they didn’t, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time they failed to understand what Jesus was actually saying. And if they ascribed to the word a completely different meaning (e.g., a place of endless or remedial punishment in a future state of existence), it would not be the first time they were guilty of letting their own traditions nullify what the Scriptures taught (Mark 7:13).

Evidently, N.T. Wright defends the view to which I hold in his Jesus and the Victory of God, as well as Andrew Perriman in The Coming of the Son of Man: New Testament Eschatology for an Emerging Church (see The Evangelical Universalist, pp. 141-142). A number of 19th century American Universalists held to the view I’m advocating as well (see, for example, An Inquiry Into The Meaning of the Words Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna, by Walter Balfour).

If by “the astute first century listener” you mean the listener who reverenced the word of God over than the opinions of uninspired men, then yes, I think such a listener would be far more likely to figure out what exactly Jesus was saying.

Here’s how I understand it: As the day drew near for the nation of Israel to be judged, those Jews whose words and thoughts manifested the wicked and ungodly character that the proclaiming of “the good news of the kingdom” was intended to transform would have been the most likely to be included among those who perished in the judgment. Their evil words and thoughts at that time would have betrayed, at best, a half-hearted loyalty to Jesus, and at worst, a rejection (or perhaps a falling away from) “the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.” And it is unlikely that those so unaffected by the Gospel would have taken Jesus’ warnings about Gehenna seriously, or been willing to “lose their life in order to save it” and “endure to the end,” as Jesus exhorted his followers to do. It was those Jews who manifested the fruit of the Spirit that were the genuine disciples of Christ (for as Christ said, individuals would be known by their fruit), and it was the genuine disciples of Christ who were most likely to heed Jesus’ words of warning and thereby escape the judgment coming upon their nation.

Dear Sonia,

Thanks for your comments. Though I am still studying and considering all the arguments, I can very much relate to many of your points, especially the excerpts I quoted below:

If this post was in response to mine, then I didn’t see that his post was modded until just now. I wasn’t taunting him because his post was getting deleted, I was just responding to what he had said. Thanks for heads up, though.

A37 needs to read my post again if he thinks I said that. I didn’t say anything about not believing in Hell, did I? But I certainly do not believe in the same idea of Hell that A37 believes in–so I guess it works out to much the same thing from his perspective. :wink:

If someone were to ask me if I believe in Hell, before I could give a meaningful answer I would have to first ask, “What do you mean by the word?” What is hell? Hades? The Lake of Fire? Gehenna? A fiery prison in the center of the earth whose inmates are mercilessly (and endlessly) tortured with fire by cackling red demons with hooves, horns, and pitchforks? :mrgreen:

Sonia

I sometimes ask, “Do you mean the Western Christian interpretation of hell?”