The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Pharisees about eternal torment

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I have a couple of questions that I’d like to resolve, because I really want to believe this. I have many friends and family unbelievers and the possibility that they can not end well after death is making me sick. Sherman has given me some very good answers, but still I have some doubts and want to know the opinion of more people to compare (you can answer the last message I sent you here, Sherman).

According to Josephus, a phariseus Jewish, most of the Jews believed in the doctrines of the Pharisees. And the Pharisees, according to Josephus, believed there was a place of eternal torment for the wicked.

The school of Shammai, who was president at the time of Jesus, taught that there were three kinds of sinners: some went to eternal life, others who went to hell to suffer eternal damnation and others that were purified and were pursuing eternal life. If Josephus and the school of Shammai are right and all the Pharisees believed in eternal torment, ordinary Jewish people would eventually also believe what the Pharisees said, whose doctrines were accepted by society. Jesus is referring a place of eternal torment, a doctrine that was famous in his time, when he said Gehenna?

#2

To me it doesn’t ultimately matter much what Hillel and Shammai (President and Head of the Sanhedrin) taught concerning Hinnom Valley because Jesus repeatedly denounced the doctrines, attitudes, and practices of the Pharisees. It’s informative to know what they taught, but ultimately doesn’t impact what I think Jesus meant in His use of Hinnom Valley. To me, the actual historical and biblical context carries much more weight. Hinnom Valley was where the Israelites erected the idol Molech and sacrificed their children in the flames of its belly - a very sadistic evil practice. It was the icing on the cake, the straw that broke the camel’s back of God’s mercy resulting in Jerusalem being destroyed, the dead Israelites being piled in Hinnom Valley which were consumed by fire, wild animals, and maggots, and the remaining alive were carried off into Babylonian captivity. Jeremiah and Isaiah used Hinnom Valley prophetically as a warning of the judgment of God against Israel which came about via Babylon.

Thus from a historical standpoint, Jesus is, like Jeremiah and Isaiah, using Hinnom Valley as a warning of the destruction that comes to a life and a people, that could come again to Israel/Jerusalem if they continue to oppose God and give their lives over to sin, even prophetically warning of the coming 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. On a personal level, I believe Jesus was saying, to paraphrase, “Get the sin out of your life; if you don’t you’ll eventually come to a place to where you even sacrifice your own children to the idols in your heart, bringing destruction on yourself and all whom you love!” It’s a powerful message, calling the children of God to repentance today! Interpreting it to be about “some day” going to either heaven or hell nullifies the power of this passage to call people, both believers and unbelievers, to repentance. Believers say, well that doesn’t apply to me because I’m saved by grace. And unbelievers don’t care what it says because they don’t believe anyhow.

Keep in mind how much Jesus opposed the doctrine of the Pharisees. If Jesus had meant to communicate that on this one point He agreed with the doctrine of the Pharisees, He would have stated so specifically; but He didn’t. So even “IF” the Pharisees were teaching that some people might suffer ECT in Hinnom Valley, to me it wouldn’t matter because Jesus repeatedly said He disagreed with their doctrine! And of course, from my research I think the Pharisees used Hinnom valley to speak of non-specific post-mortem punishment of sin which is punishment that for many, possibly most or even all, is remedial. This is the case even though scripture says that the mercy/love of God endures forever and His wrath is only momentary.

Also, “IF” Hinnom Valley was then being used as a trash dump, then Jesus was using it as a very real geographical metaphor of one’s life winding up in the trash - a trashed life!

Jesus preached “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (within reach).” Note he wasn’t preaching, repent so that someday you can go to heaven, but repent so that you can participate in the rule and reign of God today! He was preaching to the children of God, calling them to repentance, warning them of the destruction that comes to one’s life, one’s loved ones because of sin, not some day but today!

I believe that “IF” Jesus meant to warn of ECT, adding something to the Law, He would have done so very clearly, specifically, and repeatedly. But of course, He doesn’t.

#3

BTW, you might have noticed my journey of changing beliefs concerning the meaning of Hinnom Valley. When I first started posting on this forum a couple of years ago, the teachings of Hillel and Shammai significantly influenced my thinking. Today though, as noted in my previous post, they carry little weight with me. Aaron, who has sadly not posted on here for several months, challenged me in putting so much emphasis on what the Pharisees thought, noting that Jesus repeatedly affirmed his disagreement with the doctrine of the Pharisees. And he, Aaron, would point to the historical/biblical context (the doctrine of the Pharisees is not recorded in scripture) as the best perspective. It took some time for this to sink in but the more I’ve considered it, the more it has impacted my thinking. Jesus repeatedly and specifically and passionately in broad sweeping terms expressed his disagreement with the doctrine of the Pharisees. It thus does not make sense to me that on this one point Jesus would have intended His use of Hinnom Valley as an affirmation of the doctrine of the Pharisees concerning Hinnom Valley.

Rather, I believe Jesus left His meaning open for discussion because He was not teaching about what happens in the life-to-come; rather, He was teaching on how to live today in this present evil age. It was a graphic non-specific metaphor of destruction and judgment that would have been very meaningful to the Jews, His audience and Matthew’s target audience! Thus Matthew quotes repeatedly Jesus’ use of that metaphor; whereas Mark and Luke quote Jesus using it only once each, and John doesn’t quote Jesus’ use of Hinnom Valley even once.

I think the reason proponents of traditional infernalism point to the doctrine of the Pharisees so much is because they know that their is no support for the belief that Hinnom Valley should be interpreted as Hell in the historical/biblical context! And without Hinnom Valley implying ECT, there is little, if anything, in Jesus’ warnings concerning sin that affirms belief in Hell.

#4

thank you very much for the reply, Sherman. Everything you say makes sense to me.

It I was so happy when you said that the Pharisees thought that Gehenna was a place of purification and, in the worst cases of annihilation. For that reason, when I read what Josephus said the Pharisees believed in eternal suffering I believed again in eternal torment. It is very difficult to take everything that you have taught me, every time I read something about the fire I relate to eternal suffering.

As for Josephus, I have hopes that the Jewish historian may be wrong after reading this:

tentmaker.org/books/mercyand … t_ch8.html

On that page say that Josephus is not highly regarded by the Jewish community. And if supposedly Hillel taught that the wicked will not suffer eternal torment, but after a year would be annihilated in Gehenna, and Shamai even admitted that some wicked would be purified, can only mean that someone is wrong. Or simply that Josephus exaggerated the doctrine of the Pharisees saying that there are only good and bad people and there is not purification. Josephus also said that the Essenes believed in an icy eternal torment, but the Dead Sea Scrolls say that the wicked will be annihilated.

Indeed, Sherman, did you get the information on that page? I wish there was a Jew over here to tell us what they really thought the schools of Hillel and Shammai about punishment after dead and what understand the people of Jesus’ time by Gehenna.

An another doubt

"a. Rosh Hoshanah, f. 16 and f. 17. “There will be three divisions on the Day of Judgment [observe, not at death, but as Rashi adds, when the dead will revive], the perfectly righteous *; the perfectly wicked [whose demerits predominate, Rashi]; and the intermediate class [whose merits and demerits are evenly balanced, Rashi]. The first will be at once inscribed and sealed to life eternal; the second at once to Gehenna (Dan. xii. 2); the intermediate will descend into Gehenna and keep rising and sinking (Zech. xii. 9).”

This opinion was endorsed by both the great schools of Jewish opinion, the Shammaites and the Hillelites, except that the latter — inclining always to leniency — said that in the case of the intermediate class mercy would incline the balance towards acquittal, so that they would no more sink into Gehenna."

They go to Gehenna for anihilation or eternal punishment?*

#5

You’re welcome sopho.

Though I believe that Jesus is primarily referencing the historical/biblical context of Hinnom Valley, “IF” Jesus alluded to the doctrine of the Pharisees (part of the immediate cultural context) deciding to affirm some portion of their doctrine, it seems that the Mark 9 mention of Hinnom Valley might line up with the purification aspect. The following is Mark 9:38-50 YLT

38 And John did answer him, saying, Teacher, we saw a certain one in thy name casting out demons, who doth not follow us, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow us.' 39 And Jesus said,Forbid him not, for there is no one who shall do a mighty work in my name, and shall be able readily to speak evil of me:
40 for he who is not against us is for us;
41 for whoever may give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because ye are Christ’s, verily I say to you, he may not lose his reward;
42 and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the **gehenna**, to the fire -- the unquenchable -- 44 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. 45And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire – the unquenchable –
46 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.
47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the **gehenna **of the fire –
48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;
49 **for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.**50 The salt [is] good, but if the salt may become saltless, in what will ye season [it]? Have in yourselves salt, and have peace in one another.’

Note that Jesus affirms that this is something that **everyone **will undergo, that everyone shall be “salted by fire” which to me speaks of purification and preservation. This is “IF” Jesus intended to affirm this one aspect of the doctrine of the Pharisees. Of course, it actually contradicts the doctrine of the Pharisees because they taught that “some” would not see the fires of Gehenna (for Shammai this “some” was only the very righteous, for Hillel this “some” was most people whose good outweighed their bad). So “IF” Jesus was referencing the doctrine of the Pharisees, he was contradicting their doctrine and affirming that we all will need purification.

Frankly, I believe that judgment will purify us, purge us of all evil, that our encounter with Truth will burn the hell out of us! The good in us shall be purified and the evil shall be consumed. We who have already embraced Christ have already entered into this process of purification/sanctification; judgment has already begun in us, in the church.

More so though I think Jesus was referencing the historical/biblical context of Isa. 66.24
"And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out.
All who pass by will view them with utter horror.”

#6

I do not quite understand. Jesus says that we will all be salted with fire, and links it with salted with salt. The salt used to preserve food, right? Then, salting with fire could mean preserving on fire …

#7

Yes, it’s a challenging passage and seems to be a mixed metaphor. Salting speaks of preservation, fire speaks of purification, maybe meaning “preservation through purification”. And Jesus, in quoting the Isa. 66 passage speaks of how judgment brings about a positive change resulting in people worshipping God.

22 “As surely as my new heavens and earth will remain,
so will you always be my people,
with a name that will never disappear,”
says the Lord.
23 “All humanity will come to worship me
from week to week
and from month to month.
24 And as they go out, they will see
the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
For the worms that devour them will never die,
and the fire that burns them will never go out.
All who pass by
will view them with utter horror.”

And I mean “challenging”, not in thinking that it somehow affirms ECT, but in that it is challenging to understand for sure what Jesus meant. And I don’t know that Jesus meant for it to be fully understood; rather, it’s meant for us to wrestle with it.

#8

According to the Jewish historian Josephus, the Pharisees (and the Essenes) believed in reincarnation:

iisis.net/index.php?page=semkiw-reincarnation-past-lives-judaism-past-lives&hl=en_US

Even the New Testament seems to hint that the Pharisees (and even Jesus’ disciples) believed in reincarnation:

And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2)

How could the blind man have sinned so that he was born blind, except in a former life?

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” Matthew 16:13,14)

How could anyone think that Jesus was Elijah or Jeremiah or one of the prophets unless they believed that that person was reincarnated as Jesus?

#9

Paidon, that’s interesting. And it’s significant that apparently some believed that it was the righteous who were reincarnated, as if coming back to life in this world was a reward.

#10

this topic already has been discussed in one or another way, basically every thread about Gehenna

according to what I have read (I will provide no sources now but look at the threads about Gehenna or the second death The Second Death )it looks as following:

Talmudic sources are to young to be considered, this applies to Hillel and Shamai, even if they have lived contemporary to Christ, the records of their words are younger

the Saducces did not believe in an afterlife at all, and Christ never repuked them as harsh as He did with the pharisees, society was at least divided in this issue

the Jews never seemed to have believed that Jews actually might be everlastingly damned (however Talmudic source), hell was for the others already back then, Jesus on the other hand threatened only Jews with Gehenna, they could have hardly understood this as everlasting torment in they mindset without further explanation

Josephus describes the believe of the Essenes that they believe in everlasting punishment with words that properly are translated everlasting, etc., however Qumran findings imply that they held to annihilationism though they used similar terms (I do now know in which language this findings were written, Josephus wrote in Greek)

maybe we should rather consider the idea of “eternity” or endlessness the Jews had or not had than their idea of hell

thetencommandmentsministry.us/mi … e_eternity

Josephus seems to ascribe the believe in infernal punishments to the Greek thought about the soul, he thereore knew it was not based on the inspired writings - does he tell his own opinion in this issue?

Philo who was a Pharisee and contemporary with Christ is said to have believed in annihilation

the apostle Paul was a Pharisee, he would have warned more about hell, if the Pharisees were right in their belief

#11

I’ve posted stuff on the Articles thread concerning Jewish ideas of the world to come and their development - and I’m just noticing all of the threads on the subject on site.

Just a couple of observations - the reason why Falvius Jospehus is not regarded highly by the Jews is that he was a Roman collaborator who took Caesar as Lord.

The idea of reincarnation is attested to by Josephus - and even if he is unreliable, the idea of gigul/reincarnation keeps resurfacing in Judaism, especially in Hasidic Judaism and in the Kabbala that influenced this; and I have heard that it is also referred to in passing in the Talmud. According to the Jewish idea those who are making progress in righteousness are allowed six incarnations to progress more and participate in the repair of the world through their Torah observation- and each incarnation is in less troubled circumstances than the former. I also understand that those who live wicked lives need a spell of purification in Gehenna so they can go back to the beginning in their incarnational journey towards holiness.

I don’t think this belief has much influence on mainstream Orthodox, Reform, or Progressive Judiasm today (although it still has currency among the Hasidic sects). It is interesting that there is evidence that the Pharisees may have belived in it - maybe even as an esoteric doctrine. It could well explain the belief that John the Baptist was Elijah come back from the dead.

#12

Idea :bulb:
The minority Jewish doctrine of reincarnation differs from the doctrine in the Eastern religions of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. In the Eastern religions the idea is to stop being reincarnated and thus escape from the wheel of suffering – and reincarnation takes place in an interminable cyclical process (well there may be a difference of emphasis in some forms of Mahayana Buddhism but this seems generally true). The Jewish idea, by way of contrast is to embrace reincarnation as a way of perfecting/hallowing the soul and also the created world – the world which was created ‘very good’.

#13

The points about testimony regarding 1st century (and afterward?) belief about reincarnation, are good enough to deserve their own thread, btw!

#14

Paidion, you are falling for new age propaganda. The two quotes you are using do not imply reincarnation. Jews believed that our sins caused the sicknesses humans were born with wether it be deafness or blindness. Second, Jesus is asking his disciples who is the Christ, he is listening to the their responses until Peter reveals that he is the Messiah. To interpret Elishah, John the Baptist or Jeremiah as being reincarnated into Jesus is foolishness. There is no evidence for reincarnation in the earliest Christian writings. Jesus expresses afterlife strictly with Gehenna, which the gospels state that God is able to destroy both body and soul. So until i see some valid quotes I will not consider this idea of reincarnation.

#15

Keep in mind that Josephus mentioned the Valley of Hinnom (“Gehenna”) only in its literal sense of a valley just outside the SW wall of Jerusalem. He never even hinted at the Valley of Hinnom being some sort of referent to eschatological unpleasantness. Nobody ever did before the 2nd century A. D. It is nonsense when people assert that anyone in the 1st century A. D. or before used “Gehenna” to refer to eschatological unpleasantness. I’d go so far as to say that it’s an outright lie.

(Believing in Hell is easy. It’s as easy as lying. :laughing: )

#16

Excellent post Geoffrey, and the term quoted above is an absolute gem of understatement. :laughing:

#17

You have absolutely no basis for that statement.

#18

Your response to the question is really sound biblically. This really answered a question I had regarding this topic on the church currently sees and teaches about hell. However while I agree with you on Jesus’ strong resistance to the Pharisees Doctrine and customs he does seem agree with them concerning resurrection. What’s your thoughts on Jesus fulfilling resurrection prophecy and Pharisees being the most supportive of this doctrine in the 1st century?

#19

The often understood usage of Gehenna in the New Testament is that it does refer to “eschatological unpleasantness”. As in, for example:

Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into Gehenna (Luke 12:5).

And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna. (Mt.10:28)

Many Christians link Gehenna with the lake of fire, as follows. Here “Gehenna of fire” is associated with “fire eonian”:

Mt.18:8 Now, if your hand or your foot is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, or, having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the FIRE EONIAN? 9 And if your eye is snaring you, wrench it out and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life one-eyed, or, having two eyes, to be cast into the GEHENNA OF FIRE? (CLV, my emphasis)

And here again in Matthew is “fire eonian” as Satan’s fate which is the lake of fire:

Mt.25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.

Rev.20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons.

Gehenna is referenced 3 times in these few verses:

Mk.9:43 And if your hand should ever be snaring you, strike it off. It is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed, rather than, having two hands, to come away into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire" 44 where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out. 45 And if your foot should be snaring you, strike it off. For it is ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, rather than, having two feet, to be cast into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire, 46 where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out. 47 And if your eye should be snaring you, cast it out. It is ideal for you to be entering into the kingdom of God one-eyed, rather than, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehenna of fire, 48 where their worm is not deceasing and the fire is not going out. 49 For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.