The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Philip Gulley & Universalism

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Hello All (in this forum),

This is my first post here, and I’m excited to have found this forum. I’ve been a Christian for 20 years, struggled against legalism, separated myself from my first church family (a Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa affiliate), was called a heretic for believing that the grace of God was applicable to our lives and growth as much as it was for our justification, and was accused of making grace a hobby-horse in order to provide an excuse for my own sins. These accusations were partly right - but I never would make an excuse for my sin … I was born this way, Everyone else is doing it, I just can’t help it, It’s not my fault… rather I freely admit [confess] to being wrong when I’m wrong and trust that all is okay with God because of the work of Christ.

About 10 years ago, I was first introduced to the idea of Ultimate Reconciliation, and I studied it very thoroughly, I thought. At that time, it seemed to me to fizzle out every time I followed the teachings of a particular strain of thought (inclusive, exclusive, dispensational arguments, preterist arguments, etc). I was at least, for a short time, open to the idea.

Unfortunately, the staff and members of our small church who embraced the idea of UR stopped worshipping, praying, and they stopped “being nice”. They seemed to adopt an attitude of “it doesn’t matter what I do because Christ did it all”. I saw the fruit of their teaching as evidence that something just wasn’t right with their belief system. After some time, one of the main ‘Guest Speakers’ who introduced this idea of UR admitted to being a “celibate homosexual”. At the time, I perceived UR as nothing more than a fancy way to make an excuse for sin, and if Christ died to provide forgiveness and the removal of sins, why would we need to make excuses?

Since that time, I’ve been living in a dry place, spiritually. No prayer and no joy, but not miserable by worldly standards - just a practical atheist, I suppose.

Recently, I stumbled across tentmaker.org and read a testimony there that really touched me, and something in me (God?) just plain felt that there has to be something to this idea of UR.

So here I am. I’m open. Really open.

Now to the reason I put “Philip Gulley” in the subject line. I saw references in this forum to his books, so I went to the library today and checked-out three of them. Before opening any of them, I searched Gulley on the internet, found that he lives in Indiana not far from me, and I thought “Cool - I have a local resource to turn to!”. Then I opened “The Evolution of Faith” and read the first chapter.

Uggh!

Come on! Really? Muslims in church? Atheists in church? And they’re all spiritual people? Homosexuals are just as equipped as heterosexuals? Page 8: “Perhaps the evolved Christianity … will be less concerned with worshipping Christ the King. For where the primary focus of a spiritual community is the worship of its central figure, the patterns of hierarchy become established … eventually demanding unthinking conformity…”

Something in me (God?) just plain felt like throwing up.

Please don’t misunderstand - I don’t care to brow-beat atheists or bash anyone who struggles with any kind of sexual sin. In my view, homosexuality is no worse than any other kind of sexual sin. I even believe we can be born this way, but that doesn’t get anyone off the hook, so to speak. Sin is sin, and there are consequences. Sin, enlivened by the law (or conscience), should produce death in us, so that we see our need for a Savior. [Well, that’s what I get from my studies, at least].

I just can’t go that route. I’ve only read one chapter, but right away, my thoughts (right or wrong) go to a picture of Canis Lupus wearing a pair of Uggs sheepskin boots.

Do most here in this forum follow the same path of Gulley? Is there anyone here who is all-out committed to and convinced of UR, who also finds Gulley’s work disheartening? So far, from what I have read and the one video I watched, I resonate with Dr. Robin Parry, but I believe he mentions Gulley as an influence(?)

Like Fox Mulder, “I want to Believe”. But I don’t want to become a Cultural Marxist in the process. Fair?

[EDIT: Upon searching, I can’t find a post in these forums from Dr. Robin Parry that mentions Gulley as an influence. I was confused.]

#2

Hi BadAvocado, welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have been on quite the spiritual journey. I am not a frequent poster here, but I do learn much and I hope that this will be a place for you to learn and grow in faith. I wanted to address your incredulity at the idea that God could equip homosexuals as much as He equips heterosexuals. There have been heated discussions about homosexuality on this site and I have kept largely out of it as it is something that affects me personally. I, at this point, admit to having same sex attraction. My mother told me at the age of 14 that if I ever came out to her, that she would kick me out of the house,however when i did tell her,she loved me and we maintained a strong relationship until the day she died. My dad remains unaware of my orientation and I think that it is best that way.One who I know is aware of my thoughts and has been even before I was, is God. My favourite Psalm is 139, reminding me that we are all fearfully and wonderfully made. That God loved me enough to create me and,knowing all that I would be and do sent His Son to live, die and be resurrected for me and for all people, is of great encouragement to me in rough times and a challenge to me that there is noone that I should consider of no use to God. Does this mean that I agree with the practice of homosexuality? no. I have had many times in my life and some recently, where i have really wanted it to be okay to be involved with another woman, where i have really just wanted someone, but I know from what I have read in scripture it is not and i cannot change to meet my ends but God has given me great gifts in music,in my biological and Christian family and that my loneliness can be turned towards a closer walk with him. I will also admit to great anger and upset at the way the gay community has been treated by the church.There are gay people whom God has delivered from their attractions but there are also those who He has not. My belief is that God finds as much purpose for those Christians who continue to have and struggle with ss attraction as those who do not or no longer struggle with it and they could afford to be more graceful in their approach knowing that it is not their own merits but God’s grace that has saved them. As for the atheists and muslims, if they are not being drawn to seek Christ,then why are they in church in the first place?

#3

I think the short answer is that most of our posters would see Gulley as a non-evangelical who rejects the Bible’s reliable authority, and would see their path to U.R. as quite different that his. I think his books are unfamiliar to most of our members and get little discussion among evangelicals. I’m not familiar with where Parry cites Gulley as his influence. Can you give the reference?

#4

Hi Avocado,

Just speaking for myself, I don’t believe in an “all roads are the same” theology, and I’m very interested in keeping Christ and our Father as the center of worship. I’m even in favor of “conformity” – not “unthinking” – but as Paul says: “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” (Rom 8:29)

I’ve never read Gulley.

Welcome!
Sonia

#5

I’ve never even heard of Gulley. :unamused:

And I am extremely much against an “all roads are the same” theology.

(I’m willing to grant, I suppose, that all roads lead to Christ; but all roads lead away from Christ, too. :wink: )

There are at the moment I write 29192 total posts on 2170 total topics. Of those posts, I only found 19 mentioning Philip Gulley. (This comment will be the 20th.) Four (now five) of those are in this very thread; and nine of them are in a thread from February 2009 two and a half years ago (about half a year after our forum started). And not many of those posts were positively appreciative of him. Some were quite negative, others had no idea who he was or referenced him in other neutral fashions.

(Actually, looking back I see that I heard of Gulley briefly in that Feb 2009 thread, and promptly forgot he even existed.)

So… http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/ummno.gif

This forum was set up by (mostly) trinitarian theists, to cater (primarily) to eastern or western orthodox trinitarian universalists, and picked up (mostly) trinitarian theists as guest authors, myself included. We have some non-trinitarian members, but even most of them emphasize Christocentric worship, and most of them take doctrinal truth just as seriously as the rest of us do.

Honestly… Gulley…??? I think I can say as a purely statistical fact that my theology is at least 239 times more prevalent on this board than his is! :unamused: :wink:

#6

Thanks for the replies.

@Sazag84 - I wholeheartedly believe that God can and does equip homosexuals as much as heterosexuals. I’m ignorant of any posts or threads about homosexuality here, and it’s not really my intent to focus on that. In my view, your ss attraction is in some ways similar to my attraction to the opposite sex. I can very easily commit adultery in my heart (mind’s eye, if you will). While they aren’t the same sin, they are both sexual desires that are contrary to God’s character. Temptations don’t have to be acted on, though. And if a temptation overcomes us, we have a God who loves us, and Christ our advocate. From my perspective, putting a unrepentant, practicing homosexual in a position of ministry is no different than putting an unrepentant, practicing adulterer in a ministry position. Again, I don’t really want to focus on that - it was just an example from his book. And I hope you didn’t read my post as one of hostility against Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction.

The muslim was the spouse of a Christian member who came with the spouse. I’m not opposed to that - Paul talks about unbelievers who come to our meetings (though I believe Paul thought of our meetings as existing primarily for Christian fellowship - not for evangelism). It wasn’t the fact that these unbelievers were in the fellowship gathering that bothered me, but that Gulley apparently sees no difference between false religions that bind people and Christ who sets us free. (Yes, the “christian religion” binds people too - I get that!)

@Bob Wilson - I thought I saw a line in one of his posts that listed Gulley as one of his influences. I could be wrong. Please bear with me - all the names, books, etc are new to me - they didn’t exist 10 years ago, or I wasn’t aware of them.
While searching for a thread that mentioned Gulley, I found one of your posts where you mentioned one of Gulley’s books as a turning point for you. You said it was a “liberal unscholarly rant … the led me to search out Talbott, Parry, Bonda, Ansell, Jerzak, serious comentaries, word studies, etc”. That quote eases my mind quite a bit. :slight_smile:

@SLJ (Sonia) - Thanks for the welcome! I was thinking about Gulley’s line on “conformity” in the same way you had.

#7

Thanks Jason… I got a few facts and names mangled. Apologies.

#8

I have only read “If Grace Be True” by Gulley, co-authored by James Mulholland.

In that book I had an issue with chapter 5 in which Gulley makes the point that Universalism naturally must lead to “inclusivism”. I could not agree with that.

I would rate his book 2 stars out of five. Not the best book for insight into EU.

#9

No harm done; I can get very spitty when talking about “all roads are the same” universalism. :wink:

Which like most people is what I thought universalism always amounted to, too, 12 years ago. So I can sympathize with rejecting that. (Thanks for nothing, UUs! http://www.wargamer.com/forums/smiley/rantswitch.gif)

#10

To be fair, it’s conceivably possible that Robin says something about Gulley on his own blog somewhere. I cannot imagine it’s anything primarily good, but Robin’s a fair guy and tries to appreciate what he can. :slight_smile:

Meanwhile, I recommend throwing Gulley’s books away and trying some Winchester or MacDonald. You’ll never read anyone more Christ-centered than they are. An 1831 edition of Winchester’s Dialogues (published originally 1788ish) can be found here for free as a download in a bunch of formats. And MacD’s Unspoken Sermons (plus Hope of the Gospel which is basically US Vol. 4) can be gotten hold of for free from several places, too. I’ll pmail my own copy from the first edition if you want.

I would gladly read MacD for the devotional exercise alone (and I typically can’t stand devotionals!) even if I wasn’t universalist–as indeed was the case before I became one. :slight_smile:

For 800+ pages worth of hard-core metaphysical analysis leading to orthodox Christian trinitarian theism (and setting the groundwork for a step to trinitarian Christian universalism), you can read my book Sword to the Heart for free on site by following the link in my signature, or I can email a doc or pdf version. My next big project is to start doing the same thing from a systematic scriptural exegesis–but that’s a lot more detailed so it’s taking longer to spool up and get going! :laughing:

#11

Please accept my apologies, not having read Gulley, I completely lashed out prematurely. I sometimes get more defensive of that than I should for some reason. I heard of Gulley’s If Grace is true. It was criticised even by universalists as having a low view of the scriptures and not being representative of what biblical evangelical universalism was about so I didn’t really bother looking into it. I can assure you that the people that I have encountered here hold scripture very highly and I believe have arrived at their conlusions through much study and prayer. Although I am not a universalist, my opinion of universalism before this year was that it was a nice thought but not really biblical and didn’t really think of it as much more. Reading through the topics posted here has been a real awakening and education at a time when my faith needed educating and awakening.

#12

Come to think of it, I did read part of “If Grace is True” several years ago. The title caught my eye on the library shelf, but I was disappointed by the inclusivist nature of his theology and didn’t finish it.

Sonia

#13

Welcome BadAvocado! I hope you find this forum, & the materials we recommend, much more encouraging and biblically based than Gulley :slight_smile:

I also couldn’t find it in either his TEU or ASBW books. Anyway you’re right Jason, Robin always tries to be gracious, especially with those he disagrees with.

I’m glad to hear that :sunglasses:

#14

Welcome BadAvacado,

I’ve never read Gulley, or even heard of him until you mentioned him. There is a big, huge, GARGANTUAN difference between Christian Universalism and Unitarian Universalism which, from what you wrote, it seems that Gulley believes. In Christian Universalism sin still leads to death and destruction, whether in this life or the life to come. Most roads do not lead to life, but actually lead to death. And the road that leads to life is very narrow and straight - the convergence of right attitudes, right beliefs, and right living. It’s like a razor’s edge it is so precise, and the further off that path the more we are in bondage to sin and death.

Concerning homosexuality, it is like any other sin in that it leads to death and destruction, just like gluttony, adultery, fornication, idolatry, anxiousness, wrath, evil speaking, etc. Some walk in specific sin by choice, as in rebellion against God. Others are trapped in disfunction from birth and because of events that they had no choice in. Our job is not to judge others, much less assume negatively concerning thier motives, but to love the hell out of 'em, and hope that some one loves the hell out of us!

#15

Thanks, Alex! I just double-checked TEU with Amazon’s Search Inside The Book (which makes a handy indexing tool). No mention of Gulley.

Robin used to have an pseudonymous EU blog for a while, although there hasn’t been activity there since Feb of 2010 (for some obvious reasons I guess. :slight_smile: ) I checked with Google on that site and came up with nothing there either.

#16

I’ve read some of his stuff and like some of the things he had to say but stopped reading for pretty much the same things you discussed in the OP. My wife is reading one of his fiction books right now. She likes it.

Welcome to the boards BTW.

#17

Thanks again to everyone for the welcome. :slight_smile:

I have listened to a few audio files since yesterday. I really appreciate his tone.

Good deal! I found Winchester and MacDonald online - have downloaded and will have a look. Thanks for the offer of your book, but I am a VERY slow reader and 800 pages - whew! (Is that in large print?) :slight_smile: Actually, I’m hoping to nail down the biblical theology at the moment, so a metaphysical analysis will have to go on the back-burner. Thanks again!

Thanks, but no apology is needed. I didn’t feel that your post was inappropriate in any way. I appreciate your high view of scripture, btw.
It sounds to me like you’re on a similar path that I have been on, in regard to UR. The idea makes sense to me, and I don’t see it as “unbiblical”, though I do see some problematic passages… not that there is no explanation, but that there is enough ambiguity to keep this little truth (if it is indeed truth) hidden from obvious view. Ten years ago, my studies centered around Romans 5 (Adam vs. Christ), the use of “aion” in the Greek New Testament, and also the meaning of “the faith of Christ” as used by Paul, which is often translated “faith in Christ”, but according to some Christian Universalists, it should be translated as “the faith of Christ / Christ’s faith”. I became pretty well convinced that an aion (or, “eon” in the english) is just a period of time, with a beginning and an end - so all those passages where “forever” and “forever and ever” are used, are a little suspicious, in my view. Some people have problems with this definiton because they feel it makes God into something less than an “eternal” God, if eternal (aion) only means a limited period of time.

Well, I could go on, but that would be really off-topic. In short, I’m not sure where my studies will lead this time around, but I am thankful to have a forum like this one. I was a little worried when I thought it was a mix-match of UR and UU, but my fears have been alleviated. :slight_smile:

In any case, I’m glad to meet you here and look forward to the discussion.