If I don’t misunderstand, that’s a ‘yes’ to more peace and more joy in this life than every non-believer.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Hang on. I thought you were saying that this Godly woman whose body chemistry is tormenting her to the point of considering suicide has more peace and joy in this life than every non-believer? Is that the case or not?
No. For one thing the believer will be welcomed home, forever to be with Christ upon his/her earthly demise.
If by “peace” and “joy” you mean that which is said by Paul to be the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then yes; I don’t see how it could be any other way. Those in whom the fruit of the Spirit is being produced will have more peace and joy in their life than those in whom the fruit of the Spirit is not being produced (just like they’ll be more loving, kinder, more patient, etc.).
Or do you think these two fruits (peace and joy) are only for those believers who aren’t suffering?
Is the fruit of the Spirit only for those believers who have a certain body chemistry?
Why do you believe that those who die in belief are “welcomed home” after death but not those who die in unbelief?
I stumbled into (what I found out later was) EU after a men’s prayer meeting with Tim Keller (NOT a universalist) speaking about the New Jerusalem.
Rev 20:6
“Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”
Who would we be priests TO? I’d thought “there wasn’t anybody up here but us chickens!”
It occurred to me that we Christians are “putting our flesh to death” and being “crucified with Christ” in this life. So we have a head start on the process… I spent two years studying “the second Death” throughout Revelation. It was much more involved than two “soul bins”. I came to believe that Christ’s redemptive purpose and war on sin continued into the next aion. And Christ Wins.
I think the words ‘peace’ and ‘joy’ are simple terms. Yes Paul listed them in the fruit of the Spirit. However, to suggest that a suicidal, seriously clinically depressed and anxious soul has more peace and joy than every non-believer is shocking. It makes a mockery of the words peace and joy and it makes a mockery of christian souls who suffer terribly with mental illness.
That is because you refuse to consider that your belief system may be flawed. Step outside of your belief system and there is no problem.
This is not scripturasl. It is also a very dangerous idea to imagine that because you are a believer, that makes you kinder and more patient than every non-believer. You believe yourself to be more kind, more loving, more generous (ie just better in every way) than every one of your non-believer friends?Does that attitude not remind you of the pharisees?
That is not the only alternative. You seem to be denying reality (ie denying that clinical anxiety and depression are the opposite of peace and joy) rather than being willing to re-examine your beliefs. You have created this contradiction by insisting that all humanity is treated alike post-mortem, so 'peace and joy et al can only refer to this life (in your view).
You seem reluctant to answer the question, preferring to pose one to me and that is very understandable considering the answer you would have to give.
As for your question, no, the fruit of the Spirit is for all disciples of Christ including those poor souls who suffer in mental anguish. But I do not place a time limit on when God brings the fruit to ripe maturity as you do. It is blatantly obvious that a suicidal soul does not have peace and joy. To suggest otherwise is a gross insult to that poor suffering soul.
Because no-one will enter the kingdom of heaven until they surrender at the feet of Jesus.
Are you saying that people will enter heaven without accepting Christ as Lord?
HI pilgrim,
Thanks for the heads-up on the other thread; I had overlooked your most recent response to me on this thread. The following are some thoughts that I hope will further our discussion by helping you better understand why I believe what I do, and why I believe it to be consistent with both Scripture as well as your own experience.
The “peace and joy” of which I have in mind are spiritual blessings that are able to be enjoyed by all people who have a sufficient mental capacity, and are of a sound enough mind, to possess and hold fast to the “knowledge of the truth” (i.e., the knowledge that Paul says “accords with godliness”). If a person has been brought to a knowledge of the truth then they necessarily have the “living hope” of the resurrection within them (which is the hope to which believers are “born again” - 1 Pet 1:3-4; cf. 3:15). It is this hope in which believers were saved (Rom 8:23-24); without it, I don’t see how one could be called a “believer.” So how is it possible for a person to have this “living hope” abiding within them and it not be a source of peace and joy and comfort to them in their life? Moreover, when a person of sufficient mental capacity and of a sound enough mind hears and believes the “word of truth,” they are reconciled to God (Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18-19) and are introduced into a new covenant relationship with God and his Son (John 17:3; Heb 8:10-12). How can the knowledge of having one’s sins forgiven by God and of being justified not be a source of peace and joy for a person?
As long as they are, by faith, abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel, believers have “the mind of Christ” and thus enjoy righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit (Rom 14:17). I don’t think it is any more possible for someone who is abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel to not be righteous than it is for them to not have the joy and peace of which Paul speaks in Romans 14:17. Just like kindness and patience and self-control will invariably characterize those who are abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel rather than those who aren’t, so it is with joy and peace. Does this mean those who are abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel are without trials and suffering in this life? Of course not. But for one who is of the same sound mind of which they were when they originally “obtained access by faith into the grace” in which all believers stand (Rom 5:2) they will be able to rejoice in hope of the glory of God and rejoice in their sufferings (v. 3). To become more like Christ is to become more like the one who, while no stranger to suffering and trials, knew what it was like to have joy and peace, and (I believe) experienced more joy and peace in his life than the non-believers around him. It was Christ himself who told potential followers: “Come to me, all who labour and are heaven laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy (or “pleasant”), and my burden is light” (Mt 11:28-30). And shortly before his crucifixion Jesus said to his disciples, “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.” He also prayed, “But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they * may have my joy fulfilled in themselves” (John 17:13). I don’t think Jesus was any more talking about his disciples’ post-mortem experience here than he was talking about his own post-mortem experience. The “joy” of which he spoke was something both he and his disciples enjoyed in this life, even though their lives were undoubtedly filled with trials and suffering.
As stated before, it’s true that this life is full of heartache and difficulties (as both Christ and his 1st century disciples knew all too well), but amidst the tribulation of this world, those who are abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel will have “comfort” (2 Cor 1:3-5) and a “peace” that unbelievers cannot enjoy (John 14:27; 16:33; Rom 2:10; 3:17; 8:6). Paul wrote, “Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way” (2 Thess 3:16). Paul also spoke of “the peace of God which surpasses understanding” as guarding the believer’s heart and mind in Christ Jesus (Phil 4:7). Did Paul mean “after death” here? No; he clearly meant while those to whom he wrote were living in this world. Paul also wrote, “May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.” Non-believers cannot have “all joy and peace in believing” and “abound in hope” by the power of the Holy Spirit, because the peace and joy of which Paul is speaking here is inseparable from believing. Paul also wrote that in all his affliction, he was “overflowing with joy” (2 Cor 7:4). James wrote: “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing” (1:2-4). I believe every person who is of sound enough mind to abide in Christ and hold fast to the gospel is able to overflow with joy amidst affliction just as Paul and James were. If one is not of sound enough mind and psychologically well enough to abide in Christ and hold fast to the gospel (as Christ and Paul exhorted sound-minded people to do) then it follows that one will not be able to enjoy the “peace of God which surpasses understanding” and to “overflow with joy” amidst affliction. Would this be their fault and something for which they are morally responsible? Of course not; like those who were said to be possessed by demons in Christ’s day, it would be their misfortune that they are unable to abide in Christ and hold fast to the word that was preached to them, not something for which they should be considered wicked or unrighteous. And their psychological malady will, I believe, be healed in the resurrection. But unless one is able to abide in Christ and hold fast to the gospel, it remains the case that they will not be able to “bear much fruit” and enjoy the spiritual advantages of being a believer rather than a non-believer.
Now, assuming the clinically depressed and anxious woman to whom you’ve been referring became a believer in the gospel at some point in her life (and I have no reason to doubt that she did), whenever and to whatever extent she is of the same sound mind that she had when she first became a believer in the gospel (and thereby came to possess a godly character), then I think she will have a capacity to experience and enjoy the peace and joy which is included among the “fruit of the Spirit.” That is, to whatever extent that this woman is of a sound enough mind to abide in Christ and hold fast to the gospel, I believe she will have a capacity for every fruit of the Spirit to be produced in her life (and will thus be able to “bear much fruit”). But if it’s true that the mental illness of the woman of whom you speak is preventing her from having peace and joy, then to the same extent I think she is being prevented from abiding in Christ and being a mature believer who is holding fast to the gospel (which is not something for which such a person could be considered morally responsible). A believer who is abiding in Christ and who is holding fast to the gospel, but who is regularly joyless and without peace is, to me, as much an impossibility as a believer who is abiding in Christ but who is regularly unkind and impatient. So to whatever extent that this woman is too mentally ill/disturbed to abide in Christ and hold fast to the gospel, she will be unable to enjoy the spiritual advantages that she would otherwise enjoy if she was of sound enough mind to abide in Christ and hold fast to the gospel. And again, her mental illness need not be understood as something for which she is to be blamed and considered morally responsible; it’s just an unfortunate fact of her existence which, if not remedied by God in this life, will definitely be remedied in the resurrection. But I believe that unless one is of sound enough mind to be able to abide in Christ and hold fast to the gospel (and people can be suffering a great deal while still being of sound enough mind to rejoice in their sufferings), the fact that they are not experiencing the spiritual advantages that come with abiding in Christ is not problematic to my view (which is that the fruit of the Spirit - including peace and joy - is, to some degree or another, being produced in the lives of all who are abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel.
Does any of this make sense, pilgrim? I have been arguing that it is more advantageous in this life to be a mature believer who is abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel than it is to be a non-believer. Your argument seems to be that this cannot possibly be true because you know of some godly persons who are too mentally ill to have “more peace and joy than a non-believer” in this life. But is there such thing as a godly person who is without hope? I don’t think so; we are born again to a living hope when we come to the knowledge of the truth, and this knowledge of the truth “accords with godliness” (according to Paul). And to the extent that one has the hope that the gospel brings I believe they will have a joy and peace in their heart that non-believers cannot enjoy by virtue of their being non-believers. But I believe that to whatever extent a person is too mentally ill to have “more peace and joy than a non-believer” (and how much peace and joy do non-believers have, anyway?) they are too mentally ill to be a believer who is abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel. Is this their fault? No; their mental illness was neither chosen nor desired by them. But the fact that their mental illness prevents them from abiding in Christ and holding fast to the gospel doesn’t mean it isn’t advantageous in this life to be someone who is abiding in Christ rather than someone who isn’t abiding in Christ. I cannot help but conclude that it is more advantageous to be a believer in this life rather than a non-believer, since believers have the hope of the resurrection (i.e., of being made alive in Christ on the last day), as well as the knowledge and assurance that they have been reconciled to God and that their sins have been forgiven. And such hope and assurance cannot, I believe, fail to be a source of joy, peace and comfort in the life of a believer, thus making it more advantageous to be a believer in this life rather than a non-believer.
You asked:
Everyone who enters heaven will, I believe, be sinless. But I deny that Scripture teaches that people must accept Christ as Lord in this life before they can become fit to enter heaven after they die. I believe at the resurrection all people will be made sinless and fit for heaven, whether they were believers in this life or not.*
Pilgrim,
Even if you disagree with almost everything I’ve said in my last post, consider the following: if the chronically depressed/anxious woman of whom you speak has experienced at least some degree of joy, peace, comfort (etc.) in her life as a result of her being a believer, it has been advantageous to her to have been a believer rather than an unbeliever. Even if her condition gets so bad that she never experiences any peace or joy or comfort as a result of being a believer for the rest of her life, as long as she received some peace and joy and comfort at some point in her life because of being a believer, she will have been better off for having been a believer rather than an unbeliever. And this is all that my position requires. It doesn’t require that every believer have more peace, joy and comfort than every unbeliever; rather, my position is simply that it is of greater advantage (even if the advantage is only slight) in this life to a person to be a believer rather than an unbeliever.