O - whatever God ordains is good and right. My point was only about the incongruency between ordaining that a man sin, and then punishing the man for it. That’s all.
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Rom.11:32).
Punishment, discipline, chastisement, correction is related to God’s mercy. In light of Christ’s death for mankind, it would be sinful of God if He didn’t punish/correct humanity, and just left us to rot in our sins. Far from punishment being unfair, it is the most righteous, just and loving thing He could do, though none of us deserve it. We don’t deserve to exist or deserve the mortal life that He has freely blessed human beings with. Let alone to live an immortal life full of endless blessings.
“God is the Maker of good and the Creator of evil (Isa.45: 7). And, He is just in all His ways, and kindly in all His doings (Psa.145:17). To the illuminated believer, when he learns of God’s wisdom and perceives His purpose, this becomes evident even in those things which are so terrible in themselves. It is not at all sinful for God to create those evils which are men’s sins. Rather than this being wrong, in light of evil’s necessary yet salutary ministry for permanent and universal good, it would be wrong were He to fail to do so.”
Allrighty, we disagree. What a surprise on this Forum. 
I have posted my butt off about this subject over the years, so I reckon I’ll just let it go at that.
Peace to you, and to all of us. 
If it were not for the bible, we would have no way to resolve this issue. People only assume free will from appearances. The mechanism driving behavior is hidden within a black box, which is why classical behaviorism only studied observable behavior. Where in the bible is there an explicit statement supporting free will? It seems nobody who supports the concept can produce one, while there are many statements in scripture which demonstrate there is no such thing. It’s simply a case of people waning to believe what’s simply not found in the bible. I can only conclude that God has hidden the simple truth of His absolute sovereignty from them. I do think it’s something that needs to be acknowledged. It’s grace that allows one to do this.
Dave, stay cool
Well horan, you never answered me: [A Short Bible Case for Universalism-feedback)
So lets get down to the rub…
Horan _ That bone has been picked here before, and no-ones mind has ever been changed.
God’s sovereignty is what it is; what it means takes a bigger mind than yours and yes even mine. 
to properly understand.
Let us not be too hasty in judging another Person’s servant.
Remember, when I say this?
I said that God would tell us who is right - at the end of time. This might be sooner then we think 
The man whose biblical doomsday claim has some nervously eyeing Sept. 23
Well, today’s story in USA Today - gives me hope:
The world is going to end - just probably not Saturday
The article says…However…We can die from nuclear war, grant asteroid, climate change, over population, black hole, super nova, global pandemic biological weapons and aliens.
But it leave out one important element The Zombie apocalypse (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_apocalypse)
Unless it falls under global pandemic or biological weapons?
And everyone here thinks, free will vs no free will (or some combination of the two) - is the worst thing plaguing us 
Yes, that’s how Isaiah 53:10 reads in the later Masoretic Hebrew text.
However, the Greek Septuagint Old Testament from which the New Testament writers quoted, seems to say almost the opposite:
I can only conclude that God has hidden the simple truth of His absolute sovereignty from them.
A King can be sovereign without meticulously controlling every choice man makes. He can but he need not so i think man has limited free will subject to God’s Will.
There is no flatout statement supporting free will in scripture but there are many instances where man is encouraged to make the right choice. That’s what people mean by free will, the ability to choose.
The option to obey or not is indicative of choice i.e., a free will to decide either way. To say Scripture doesn’t support this is laughable…
Davo - You nailed it!! 
The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke.
I’m not quite sure what this means particularly the word “purge” and “stroke” but could it be referencing the resurrection?
Duh
I understand it to directly mean that the Lord would deliver him from the results of the stroke of death. And yes, raising His Son from death may well have been His means for doing that.
He prayed “with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him OUT OF death.” AND HE WAS HEARD! Does that not tell us that God DID save Him from death? HOW did God do that? By raising Him OUT OF death (εκ “out of” not “from”).
So God raising His Son out of death may have been the way that God “purged Him from His stroke.”
Being in disobedience & an enemy of God is not what He considers “behaving properly”, but merely a necessary momentary means to a completely undeserved & glorious goal so amazing that it is beyond what we have ever thought or imagined. Without these experiences we would never even know what “behaving properly” means. We’d be like Adam & Eve before the fall, like totally clueless zombies. That’s one “Calvinistic” URist Determinist take on the topic, anyway.
9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all. (Rom.11:32)
7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
Well, the world didn’t end today - at least, so far.
I still say that “hard core, theological determinism” - is a hard scenario to sell. You could sell hard determinism, to an atheistic professional philosopher. Like brain chemical interactions, etc. Or you could sell compatibilism (a combination of free will and determinism). And most Calvinists would buy it. But hard-core theological determinism, is a hard scenario to sell. I really don’t think even Islam would buy it - and they are pretty fatalistic theologically. Just my observation.
In fact, I just came across an interesting Islamic essay:
The Problem of Pre-Determinism and Its Impact on Muslim Thought
Let me quote a few segments - from the article. That might be relevant, to Christian theology and western philosophy.
We can see that Islamic theologians, philosophers, and scholars…wrestle with the same issues, as Christian theologians, philosophers, and scholars.
This essay - although Islamic in nature - has much relevance, to our Christian theology and western philosophy. It is well worth reading and gets 2 thumbs up from me.
Now let’s move on to Pulp Fiction at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_Fiction. I’ll just focus on plot elements, of the black and white crime enforcers or killers:
Suppose this were real. Jules saw the not getting shot, as a sign from God. Vincent say it as just luck and the guy - being a bad shot. How would we interpret this, in light of our discussion - if this all were real?
Now let me ponder that deep theological and philosophical puzzle. If hard core, theological determinism is true. Then why do I prefer Chinese restaurant tea (a hybrid of Oolong, Jasmine and Green) and Indian Chai tea (black tea with Indian spices), while most Americans prefer coffee 
Steve 7150 wrote:
The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke.
I’m not quite sure what this means particularly the word “purge” and “stroke” but could it be referencing the resurrection?
I understand it to directly mean that the Lord would deliver him from the results of the stroke of death. And yes, raising His Son from death may well have been His means for doing that.
OK good info, but the verse says “his stroke” which sounds like God determined Jesus to die?
Being in disobedience & an enemy of God is not what He considers “behaving properly”, but merely a necessary momentary means to a completely undeserved & glorious goal so amazing that it is beyond what we have ever thought or imagined. Without these experiences we would never even know what “behaving properly” means. We’d be like Adam & Eve before the fall, like totally clueless zombies. That’s one “Calvinistic” URist Determinist take on the topic, anyway.
Yes because we learn by contrast, but God need not meticulously control everything for this production to play out to it’s logical conclusion.
