The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Poll: Can I be a Calvinist and a Universalist?

Well, I’m not going to touch the issue of prophecy or ESP in this instance. It’s not really necessary, since what I’m willing to say easily covers what you’ve presented with regard to free will. There are many, many biblical passages where people are enjoined, urged, admonished to do this and refrain from doing that, and there is ample biblical evidence that some take heed and others don’t. But Jesus spoke the parable of the sower, wherein his seeds fall on all sorts of ground, growing up poorly or well accordingly, or not at all. And He said that many are called but few are chosen. Paul wrote that faith comes by hearing. If God has so constituted you, dust of the ground that your are, such that you hear His word and respond, where is the activity of your free will except that you postulate, via imagination and hindsight, that you might have responded differently? The observable fact is that you responded, rendering that you might not have as purely hypothetical. So I don’t think these injunctions and prescriptions provide any biblical evidence for free will.

On the other hand, the biblical evidence for the absolute sovereignty of God is more than ample, as is the evidence provided by the universe and natural world. But human beings like to believe their wills are free, however impossible it is to demonstrate this. And I think this is the original issue going back to the garden, believing we posses the power of choice. I think God is proving us wrong, and I think that ultimately we’ll be extremely grateful for the lesson. Not everyone responds to God’s word at the same time, according to the same circumstances or with the same intensity. We are variously different types of soil. In the story, the prodigal son only responded after having suffered much, and even then it wasn’t initially with much repentance. He just wanted an end to his suffering, but that got him moving in the right direction. Was that the activity of his free will or the result of his being destitute and hungry? Where did that thought come from, that even his father’s servants were treated better? I know that we like to take credit for our thoughts, especially for the better ones, but in fact they simply appear in our minds. Sometimes we can see how one thought leads to another, but eventually, following the trail backwards, we can find nothing for which we can claim credit. His leaving home in the first place, was that a freely willed decision, or was the young man simply a naive airhead in need of a maturing experience?

[size=150]Can I be a Calvinist and a Universalist?[/size]Sure… if he so chooses :laughing:

"The logic is quite simple:

  1. God is not in relationship with many people now who have never heard.
  2. He is capable of reaching them now & offering said relationship.
  3. He chooses not to make such an offer.
  4. Therefore He does not wish to be in relationship with them at this moment." - Origen (above)

My thinking recently on this - and recalling Baillies’ book above reminded me - was negatively influenced by Lorraine Boettner’s work called “The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination”; said book was the nail in the coffin of my ‘Calvin’ period. BTW I still have many Calvinist friends and relatives, so I"m not making a big statement against those who cleave to that system. Against the system itself I have strong opinions.

In any case, in one of Boettner’s chapters he made a remarkable statement : in answer to the question of why God would allow billions of Chinese to perish without even hearing the Good News, and experience ECT, Boettner said “If God wanted them to be saved, He would have saved them.”

That IS a remarkable statement, no? To me it reveals a certain attitude toward God, a caricature if you will, based solely on the over-blown worship of the concept ‘sovereignty’; you know, He chooses the few out of the massa damnata, and the rest He is ‘pleased to pass over’ - this out of the Westminster Creed. A horrid thing. Sovereignty VS. Agape Love - two completely different ways of understanding God but not of necessity; actually they flow together well, but people seem to gravitate toward one or the other ‘pole’.

When I mentioned Boettner’s statement to my OPC pastor, he did not even blink. Of course, God does not love everyone - that was the attitude. I think, my opinion is, that that is a very harmful and unscriptural attitude to have.

I could not be a Calvinist and a Universalist, unless I privately re-defined Calvinism in such a way that when I said 'yes I’m a Calvinist", it would not mean what people normally think it means.

Yes, i believe that follows. Unless one thinks God is not omnipotent, omniscient & benevolent, or His hands are tied, or something.

If a human had the power to stop a rape but chose not to, then i’d say that he didn’t want to stop that rape. He would be just as liable as if he had committed the rape himself, since sin of omission is as much a sin as sin of commission.

So why is it Love Almighty lets such things happen that He could very easily stop? There must be a greater purpose behind it. He will ultimately work it all together for good. Good that will have its positive effects throughout endless time or eternity.

Exactly right now I’m listening to a man named Glenn Peoples, who is giving a lecture on conditionaism. He’s a hard man to listen to, because he takes so long to make a point. Almost 20 minutes into it, I still don’t know yet what he’s talking about. Oh well, I agree that the word, unconditional, is problematic, so I’m okay with taking it out. It’s not that there might not be something to it, a way of looking at it, but that it really isn’t necessary and only creates confusion. Unlimited Atonement and Limited Election already entail a condition without it needing to be explicitly expressed, or the need to explain what you mean by unconditional and what you don’t. There is a condition, as you point out, albeit we lack the ability to comply with it. And Perseverance of the Saints just seems like a add-on to spell TULIP. I’d keep Irresistible Grace, and want a much better way to say Totally Lacking Free Will, but somehow find a way to say it, maybe Absolute Sovereignty? AULI, LIUA. Alas, nothing quite as catchy as TULIP. Actually, saying both Absolute Sovereignty and Irresistible Grace borders on redundancy. Irresistible Grace quite easily excludes free will. How about just IUL? LUI? This is going to take some work! TULIP sets the bar pretty high.

I went to a Lutheran grade school. But also to a public high school. And there was a Southern math teacher. He was kind of naive. Well, one of the kids - left a note on his desk. It read:

. Which he picked up and read to himself aloud. Then he scratched his head and asked:

Well, the whole math classed burst out laughing. We got the joke. He didn’t.

Then I had a schoolmate from the South. He gave me a pamphlet that read

"

I decided to be mischievous and put it on the math teachers desk. And he started to read it out loud - to the class. It was probably a Baptist pamphlet. This one cracked me up.

Recently, I was watching an old time western. And a man picked up a bible. And addressed a standing crowd:

Well, nothing will convince the pamphlet writers, that

No matter how many historical and contemporary, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant theologians - say differently. And whatever reasons and arguments, they come up with. Or how many professional, historical and contemporary philosophers - say differently. Or what reasons they give.

And if this “dancing stuff”, was so all fired important to God. Then God should communicate it, to the saints and mystics - in the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches. Or folks like RC priest Father A. Who has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God.

Maybe, at the end of time - God might say: "

But I will be in the same “leaky” boat - as a majority of mainstream Christians. And I don’t think God will fault us much, for missing the dancing directive. :laughing:

But until that day arrives. And until God tells me differently. I will continue to dance. :smiley:

Dave, I can see why you object to ECT Calvinism, but i’m in the fog as to why you could not be a UR Calvinist. It all made perfect sense to me up until the last paragraph.

If i believed in ECT, the LFW brand might be preferable over the Calvinist brand because of how they characterize God as not loving everyone. However with UR Calvinism this is not an issue, since God loves everyone equally. There is no “Sovereignty VS. Agape Love” issue, as you put it.

What is to happen to those “billions of Chinese” unbelievers who perished without hearing the gospel? Will they hear it at their death or resurrection? Or in the LOF? No injustice has been done to them if God does not save them at birth, in their first 20 years of life, before their death, or even ever. No one deserves salvation or even to exist. Yet there are few who wish not to live. Even insects & animals flee danger and choose life. Life is God’s gift to all created beings.

In the theory of LFW, what if no one chooses God? Maybe the world becomes totally wicked, including Noah in his day. So there is no ark built, no one is saved, God floods the entire world? No Saviour can come in the flesh & die for their sins, so they can never be saved? God has to create a new Adam & Eve, & hope He & the new race He created has better luck this time? Perhaps God has a better way than relying on luck or random chance.

If there is any prophesy dependent on LFW, it would be in jeapordary of not being fulfilled if LFW is true. Would Jesus have any disciples, if that was dependent on LFW? Would God have a church if no one used LFW to accept Him? If Adam & Eve had a LFW not to sin after God loosed Satan on them, how is it that Christ is the Lamb slain before the world?

Yes, God intends all things for good. regardless of appearance. What we can’t do, He can. Anybody can take lives, but He can restore them. The world is brutal; always has been. It may sound callous, but I see it as a great, vast dramatic story that’s being told wherein we are the actors, performing our parts as assigned, for our benefit and the benefit of all, even our brother Adolph. Pharaoh was no sweetheart, and God has been quite clear about His use of that very pompous, apparently self-willed man. I think we’re to see God’s hand in everything, without exception, and trust Him anyway. That appears to have been the lesson Job learned. Jesus tells us that that we’re likely to be persecuted for His name’s sake, even to death, but to trust Him, that He’s got us covered. Only One who can restore life from the state of death can reasonably ask this of us. I think this world is a school of very hard knocks, but one that graduates its students to the body of Christ. I’ve heard too many people say that they won’t believe in a God who allows such terrible things to happen. It’s worse than that. God is the cause of all things. We are clay in His hands, even puppets on His stage, but real characters. I pinch myself and have to admit that I’m here, looking forward to the fulfillment of His promise. How is that? God knows! Nothing whatsoever happens, whether in the world or in our minds except that it is ordained by God. We’re to simply trust Him. And even this is His alone, our capacity for trust, our willingness to trust. It’s just God. We’re created for His glory, and to fully partake of it, through trust in Him.

Origen, this is not directed at you personally, but to the argument you have expressed above, and which I have heard throughout all of my adult life. I truly believe that it is a copout. For if it is valid, then one could only conclude that God does not have the power to bring about this “greater purpose” without little girls being tortured and raped (and all the other atrocities that are occurring daily).

The “Problem of Evil” has been debated for centuries. One formulation goes like this:

  1. There is evil in the world (continuous torture, rapes, and other atrocities).
  2. God usually does nothing to stop these atrocities.
  3. Either God CANNOT stop these atrocities or He DOES NOT WISH to stop them.
  4. If He CANNOT stop them then He is not omnipotent (all-powerful).
  5. If He DOES NOT WISH to stop them, then He is not all-loving.
  6. Therefore, either God is not omnipotent or He is not all-loving or both.

Some, such as yourself put forth another possibility—God doesn’t stop them in order to fulfill a greater purpose.
If that were the case, it seems odd that He never reveals that greater purpose, and also that He could not fulfill that greater purpose (whatever it is) without these atrocities having to occur daily. If He can’t, then He must not be omnipotent.

Thanks, qaz. That’s the only view on the matter that makes sense to me.

horan - I found myself in agreement with much of the sentiment of that post; it is certainly a great Comfort and source of Hope to know that our Father is in control, and can make good come out of the most evil circumstances.

You did make one statement that I’ve heard others use, and it’s always troubled me. That is:

The thought that God would ‘ordain’ the sorry spectacle we see before us in the world, or that our thoughts are ‘ordained’ - well it sounds all Sovereign, but I just don’t see how it can be true. Maybe I don’t understand what people mean when they use the word ‘ordain’? What do you mean by it?

This is not a quibble, it’s only an ongoing struggle to understand. :smiley:
Thanks

But God does stop these atrocities. We even has His book which we can read through to end. There will be no more tears. Patience! We’re enjoined to be patient, to endure all things with loving patience, waiting on God and His promise. The whole world and all that happens within it declares His omnipotence, especially demonstrated at the cross. Jesus fully admitted that the authority to commit that atrocity was provided from above. Sir, I don’t think God cares very much about your logic, or for tip-toeing around your sensibilities. He’ll do His will however you find for Him, omnipotent or otherwise.

Oh, one other point, qaz. It is not God’s will that ANY should perish, but that ALL come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). And we believe that ALL shall come to repentance, as God wills! But how are they going to come, unless they are allowed by God to exercise their free will? If He did restrict their power of choice so that they could not choose evil, then they would not be human beings who possess the ability to choose, but robots or “sock puppets” as you have suggested.

Well, I guest it’s up to me - to bridge the gap between universalism, hard-core theological determinism and free will. Here’s my solution, which I have proposed before. :wink:

Now I might feel if universalism is true, it will really unfold, as a combination of the Left Behind, Christian book/video series, and the Walking Dead zombie series on AMC. Where God takes the saved immediately to heaven. Those who have some redeeming elements, remain on earth as humans - during the tribulation. The rest turn to zombies. And the humans have to battle both zombies and bad people - controlling things. Until Christ comes and rescues everyone - including the zombies. It’s actually a combination of 3 theological positions: Left Behind Series, P-Zombie (becoming subhuman - N. T. Wright- see youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0), with univeralism as the end point. And the same scenario must occur in Hades - at the same time.

And it solves the free will problem quite nicely - for universalism. The best (humans) will make the right choice - God’s way. And the P-Zombies (the worst), are neither with “will” nor are “free”. So when they are restored, there’s no free will for them to worry about - as P-Zombies. Problem solved.

I even have a YouTube Zombie love song - to christen this solution :smiley:

youtube.com/watch?v=YCVMuevcCvY

Human free will? You are hanging onto a serpent’s tail/tale, which is destined to be crushed, even in the great wine press of God. That’s alright. All will see in God’s good time that this is the great lesson to be learned. We can have all the free will we want, so long as it’s surrendered entirely to God. How free is that? Why hang on to this thing? What good purpose does it serve? No doubt God has His purpose for it, like telling a small child not to touch the hot stove, knowing full well that he will. Because his will is free? Or simply because he doesn’t know any better except that bitter experience teach him.

Balderdash! If I don’t have free will as you presume, then attempts to convince me of your view are useless, for I am predetermined (or at least predisposed) to continue holding to my position.

Unless we possess free will we cannot be surrendered to God. If we cannot freely choose to submit, we can only be forced by God to submit, force such as an evil dictator exercises. But God never forces his will on people. He patiently waits for them to choose to submit to Him.

To repent takes an act of the will. It is not an act of God, but of man. By repenting, a person coöperates with the will of God, being at ONE with God’s will. God doesn’t force His will on anyone unilaterally.

Those who believe in free will hang onto it, because it is reality and it explains the problem of human evil. A more puzzling question might be, "How can a free-will agent, deny the existence of free will? It’s analogous to a person with eyesight denying the existence of eyesight.

If the child has been trained to obey, the father’s purpose is to get the child not touch the stove. If the child has not been trained to obey, he will have to learn by experience whether his father says anything or not, so that it serves no purpose for the father to tell him not to touch it.

There is no gap between hard determinism and free will. Thus there is nothing to bridge. (By the way, compatibilism is simply hard determinism in disguise).

It’s like trying to bridge the gap between possessing an automobile or not possessing one. What would the bridge look like? What would be “in between”? Possessing a horse and buggy? NOPE. That would be in the category of NOT possessing an automobile.

I still like the P-Zombie and Zombie solution I’ve proposed. But if hard-core, theological determinism is true…then many churches, church fathers, reformers, as well as professional philosophers and theologians - have gotten this wrong. And as Jerry Seinfeld would ask - “why is that?”

I would think such an important piece of info - as no free will - would be communicated in speaking of tongues, in visions of Christian mystics and saints, or in Christians - that can hear God speak. Well, I never ran across any such account - in any written works.

And why is the world of quantum mechanics - full of non-determinism? Or are all the physicists and mathematicians - getting this wrong also?

And if it were true and some get it…then are they privy to esoteric knowledge (i.e. like the temple rituals in Mormonism)? What is it, that gives them - this special knowledge and understanding? Or perhaps God only gave this knowledge - to Muslims. Who have a very fatalistic view of God.

Or maybe science must arrive at a solution - to show us the truth. Like Morpheus in the Matrix. With his red and blue pills. Well, no scientist has offered this to me - yet.

There’s a lot of unanswered questions - if hard-core, theological determinism is true. :wink:

Your logic simply has consistent problems. You say that

“Unless we possess free will we cannot be surrendered to God. If we cannot freely choose to submit, we can only be forced by God to submit, force such as an evil dictator exercises. But God never forces his will on people. He patiently waits for them to choose to submit to Him.”

The phrasing I used with regard to surrender was to illustrate a meaningless category. Yes, God forces us to submit, either sooner or later. But He’s not an evil dictator. If it were a human being doing this, we all understand that such power corrupts. I agree that God patiently waits, but for what? For us to submit to Him. But time is on his side. so where is the freedom in this? He’s waiting for His own kettle to boil. Whether He wills our submission today, tomorrow or a thousand years hence, where’s the freedom? Given enough suffering, who won’t choose relief, freely or otherwise? It would appear that God is free in this regard, not us, to call us to Himself when He will, in an order that serves His purpose. Nobody chooses God except that God ordains it, but you have it that we refuse Him on our own. You’ve made it a necessity to have free will to explain evil. You make the existence of each depend on the other, which is circular. There would be no evil except that we have free will, which is proved by the existence of evil. How does this mean anything? I know that God being the author of evil, as we understand it, is a very difficult pill to swallow. We’re fine with saying He is the author of all things but that, although He freely admits it. He made Adam. He made Eve. He made the garden. He made the snake, the tree and the fruit, but not that which we call evil, however well it serves His purpose for good. We do so like to have things our way. On the other hand, if my will is free, so is yours, and condemnation necessarily follows, Pandora’s box is thrown wide open and all calamity ensues. It’s not that you have a free will to surrender but that God, in His own good time, will disabuse you of believing you have your own will to anything at all. He has simply given you the hot stove to touch, and you will never be the same. Surrender will be the consequence of that, God’s work and none of ours.

I’m in no position to say what criteria God uses for choosing His elect, a Calvinistic concern if there ever was one, but I’m doubtful that claiming anything whatsoever for ourselves is on the syllabus, including wills of our own. But the mileage of others may vary.

I think even animals without LFW, who act according to their natures, can trust. So why not also human beings without LFW who are much more highly created.

The whole robot puppet thing is brilliantly addressed at the following url, of which the following is a small portion:

"Being a robot entails all sorts of unsavory things:

The lack of consciousness.
The inability to have emotions.
The inability to love.
The inability to express interests and values.
The inability to find meaning in things.
The inability to creatively express one’s self.
The inability to come up with novel inventions and innovations.
The conformity to simple rules.
The inability to vividly imagine multiple prospects and choose between them according to feelings, intuition, and reason developed from a lifetime of experience.

Notice that each of the above are not things that could describe us, even under determinism.

As such, “We’d all be robots” is a Kochab’s Error. Calling us “robots” under determinism is absurd, trampling on all sorts of real, true things about ourselves that we enjoy and express.

To put it simply, if we ask “Could a robot make poetry/artwork/symphonies/etc.?” and the answer is “No,” then we’re not robots under determinism."

stanrock.net/2014/10/14/does-de … us-robots/