Christian Heretics. I like that name! It’s good to be able to regularly meetup with some of like mind & spirit.
I’m glad you enjoyed the preface to that book, Horan. I don’t agree 100% with everything in it or Campana’s, but found them worth the effort & to consider their opinions re the Scriptures. I’m in the process of reading the latter. After skimming the chapter 12 on Arminianism last night went back to start from Chapter 1.
I’m really a Pragmatist. And last night’s Fear The Walking Dead - was excellent. As far as hard-core, theological determinism goes. If:
Science devises a way to prove it. And the majority of scientists - jump on board
Or God communicates it to those in speaking of tongues, visions of Christian mystics and saints… or Native Americans spiritual figures, heard God say it… or Christians who can hear God speak - hear it.
Or they discover new manuscripts, definitely addressing it - that the majority of Christian churches, are on board with.
Or the Zombies rise up in mass and communicate it to mankind
Then I might change my minds. Until then
I’ll stay on the bandwagon, of the majority of Christian churches, theologians and philosophers. And at the end of time, God will tell us the truth. And not fault us Christians much - if it’s true - and we don’t see the light. 
I’m pragmatic through and through.
All that Franciscan contemplation stuff…this Eastern Orthodox Theosis stuff…this Charismatic church stuff…These Joel Osteen, health and prosperity gospel messages…helps me to feel better, in the here and now.
Same goes for healing stuff, like homeopathy, Ayurveda, Traditional Chinese Medicine and spiritual healing.
If I was a convinced universalist and NOT just a hopeful one. Then this hard core, theological determinism…Would eliminate a big sticking point (AKA Free Will). Pragmatism at its roots. 
I must get ready, for a Zombie party tonight 
Put the Creed into something like writewords.org.uk/word_count.asp orwordcounter.com/. Or track down one of my Zombie or AI Robotic friends and ask them - to help you out.
Option 1 seems like a good one - however I did find an appropriate app for the job and linked to it above.
Option 2 - southern Oregon is not, for some reason, a Z-friendly environment and even a boldly worded Craigslist Ad has not turned up much Z-ness in the area.
The are correctly labeled P-Zombies. Be careful now. You might hurt their feelings - I think 
With regard to the concordant book, I’m doubtful about the author’s take on the second death. In Revelation 20, Satan is loosed again to deceive the nations, gathering them together for war, a great battle, Gog and Magog. The concordant author identifies the 2nd death with the lake of fire, which seems appropriate enough, but I’ve been understanding this as simply the death of the old man, that those raised up in the first resurrection have already accomplished this such that it’s without effect on them. After you dispense with Sheol/Hades and Gehenna, divesting them of their traditional connotation, you still have the lake of fire to deal with. That battle appears to me as some sort of continuation of that which is already taking place, a spiritual battle for the heart and mind’s allegiance. I can’t guess what the logistics look like except that somehow all will be humbled and brought to their knees. There’s only the most vague time frame allowed for this, a little season, whatever that might be. But we read in Hebrews that it’s appointed to men once to die, and after that the judgement. I’m just very doubtful that the 2nd death is in anywise whatsoever literal, but a term that implies transformation, as in dying to the flesh and being reborn to the spirit.
Anyway, this same author does a fine job with putting free will in it’s place, so here’s a link to that chapter in case any free will proponents are up for an opposing argument:
So if the choices of a cat, dog or monkey are not made by the animal, then the animal is not an animal? In the OT there is the account of an animal who spoke in human language. Did that choice of God, not made by the animal, mean the animal was not an animal?
Dogs choices are “actually made by” the dog. That doesn’t mean the dog has a sovereign autonomous free will.
You can’t have a “relationship” with a dog? Yes, you can. How much more with the higher human animal made in God’s image & likeness.
Scientists are divided in their opinions re what science reveals re freewill & determinism. As usual, they have a lot of theories and conjectures, but no proof of anything:
quora.com/What-does-science … le-of-both
scientificamerican.com/arti … free-will/
Some Scriptures re repentance:
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (Acts 5:31)
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” (Acts 11:31)
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Tim.2:25)
Actually, arguments for and against, are fully covered - in these 2 online resources:
iep.utm.edu/freewill/
plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
Just a footnote here. I haven’t found a theological determinist on this forum, that doesn’t like A.E. Knoch. Along with the corresponding website and bible translation.
You need an independent jury - to judge the best arguments and presentations. I would elect Mr. Spock and Mr. Data, if we can find them.
I also have my doubts about the author’s views on the second death. I think most universalists historically see it as something spiritual, such as you have described it, for example, i.e. “the death of the old man”.
I’m sure i don’t understand that statement. Maybe someone can explain it simply so that even a child or a dummy like me can understand.
How is it possible for anything that happens in the universe to not be determined? That’s illogical. Even Libertarian Free Will choices, if they existed, would be determined. They’d be determined by LFW. So everything has a cause.
If we imagine that some quantum mechanics experiments found that under identical circumstances two different results occurred - with atoms or quarks or whatever - should we come to the conclusion that events are not caused? That atoms have free will? Or should we conclude that those conducting these experiments are not God, not omniscient, so they don’t see what is causing different results in their experiments.
A scientist thinks about laws in the universe, like the law of gravity. If he sees a man meditating float up 10 feet in the air, defying the law of gravity, should he conclude that the world is “full of non-determinism”? That the man is using freewill to defy gravity? Maybe there’s some other laws of cause & effect at work that the scientist doesn’t see, that are causing the meditator to float up in the air like Jesus walking on the water. Like those involving, for example, the intervention of angels, demons, God’s Holy Spirit.
I’ve never known any tongue speaker, vision, prophesy, etc, to deny determinism. Even if one did, how would one know if the source was of God?
2 Pet.1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Tim.2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
Just because they don’t deny it, doesn’t mean they affirm it either.
No voice ever asks anything, that’s not covered in Holy Scripture. And there is a Holy Spirit gift, called the discernment of spirits. Or as the dialogue between Roman Catholic priests and Lakota medicine men - in Christ and The Pipe (see amazon.com/Pipe-Christ-Christian-Sioux-Dialogue/dp/1877976008/). There are spirits of heaven, hell and the earth - according to the Roman Catholic priest author. Of course, hell refers to demonic sources. And you will certainly know them, if you ever encounter them.
Quantum mechanics isn’t non-deterministic. It’s used for predicting behavior. It’s stochastic; which is to say, while we can’t predict the behavior of individual particles, we can statistically predict the behavior of the aggregate. This doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to predict the behavior of individuals; however, but that we lack the means. It’s practically impossible. Chaos is an example of predicable patterns produced by stochastic, randomized processes. Everywhere today on social media people are responding to surveys which yield answers to such pressing questions as, which Lord of the Rings character are you? You know, the people collating that data don’t for a microsecond believe in your free will. They’ve got your number, within two standard deviations. Statistics apply to groups, not necessarily to individuals. But while we lack the means to nail down the analysis at that level, God does not. God knows exactly what you’re going to do before you do it, knew what you were going to do before you were even born. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Though we don’t all have such significant missions as Jeremiah, God knew us and knows us. He’s got our number. Free will? Good luck finding it! Without benefit of hindsight and supposing that you might have done else, you’d never even imagine it.
I’ll help with the Quantum mechanics bit.
Take something like heisenberg’s uncertainty principle at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle.
Or Schrödinger’s Cat at informationphilosopher.com/solutions/experiments/schrodingerscat/ or en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat
The bottom line is that quantum physicists and mathematicians, don’t see determinism - in the world of Quantum mechanics. They see in-determinism - for the most part.
All we need to do, is view some discussions of this topic:
physics.stackexchange.com/questions/110983/why-was-quantum-mechanics-regarded-as-a-non-deterministic-theory
philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/1210/in-which-way-does-quantum-mechanics-disprove-determinism
Don’t take my word for anything. See what they are saying, on the physics and philosophy forums cited.
Or we can read, a Scientific American article.
The Quantum Physics of Free Will
As far as hard-core, theological determinism goes. If: (I eliminated the subjective part. These are all very objective)
Science devises a way to prove it. And the majority of scientists - jump on board
Or they discover new manuscripts, definitely addressing it - that the majority of Christian churches, are on board with.
Or the Zombies rise up in mass and communicate it to mankind
Any of these 3 items, would be objective enough.
Have you considered any writings concerning quantum indeterminacy?
Even this Wikipedia article gives a fairly thorough treatment of the matter:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy
Although acts chosen by a human being are not indeterminate, they are often determined by the free-will agent alone with no ancillary causes.
Great minds think alike? NOT that I’m saying I have a great mind - mind you. But we do think alike. As noted by my previous forum discussion references and Scientific American article. And I used to hang around, with 3 different PhD physics friends - from Argonne National Laboratories (see anl.gov/).
Yes, backgrounds. Paidion and I both have math backgrounds. But I was also a physics minor and math major. And had a statistical black belt in statistical methodology - from Motorola. Where I helped engineers with projects. As an old western gunfighter used to say:
It’s from The Guns of Will Sonnett“
And here’s a 10-second, YouTube video clip:
youtube.com/watch?v=9j1qkorFszY
And I forgot my theme song.
youtube.com/watch?v=N9qYF9DZPdw
P.S. I really enjoy this Scientific American article - previously referred to. It should be “objective” and “scientific” enough.
The Quantum Physics of Free Will
So, guys. We can go as deep into this “rabbit hole” - as you wish to travel.
And If I don’t respond until tomorrow, I’m off to join the Franciscan nuns for Mindfulness Mediation tonight at taucenter.org/
I’m only disputing that there is anything that’s truly non deterministic. Anybody can search and discover that there are various interpretations and levels of analysis involved. But there’s nothing about quantum mechanics that demonstrates a phenomenon without cause. Chaos equations produce predictable patterns with a great variety of anomalous detail, but in every instance of a Mandelbrot set, for example, it’s the same equation, or a variation. There is non-deterministic encryption, which nonetheless employs a fixed pattern of methodology, rendering non-deterministic as a relative term. Nothing happens without a cause, or a causal system, except the big bang fantasy. And of course that tends to be unsatisfying, so they’ve trotted out string theory which has no basis in reality away from the blackboard. And even if they might better establish it, its veracity would require yet another level of regression. This sort of thing doesn’t help you out with regard to establishing free will, because it doesn’t pertain. Whether your behavior is directed by deterministic or non-deterministic algorithms, you are still a robot, albeit a sentient one. You are still clay in the Potter’s hands. What’s claimed for free will is that you, unlike all things great and small, are a cause to yourself. It’s patently silly. Science is a wonderful thing, but it can’t prove the impossible; well, outside of National Public Broadcasting.
I believe in the God of the bible, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, who is the cause of everything entirely. I can’t prove this scientifically, that God even exists, and I don’t care. I’m content to let Him prove it. He says He does and that He will and I believe Him. I think you should exercise your free will all day long. It’s a free country, in a manner of speaking, after all. I hope your free will works out for the best, Why should I wish you else but that? Good luck. But why should there be such resistance among Christians to even entertaining the notion that their God is absolutely sovereign is a fascinating phenomenon, surely not without a cause. As well, I think it mind boggling how few Christians are willing to entertain the notion that their God is absolutely merciful.
2 questions:
Did you read this article?
The Quantum Physics of Free Will
And would you care to provide commentary - regarding it?
Some footnotes to your commentary:
No one disputes an original cause. Either God or an atheistic “something” - whatever that is.
Chaos theory is still - just theory. Although there might be experiments - to try to prove it.
I assume you are comparing and contrasting, non-deterministic and probability encryption
String theory has yet to be proved, as far as I’m aware. But it still has it’s exploration - in physics and mathematics.
Mandelbrot set gets into complex numbers. And the theoretical aspects, would involve mathematical proofs.
Many scientists don’t see big bang as a “fantasy” (Stephen Hawkins, for example). And theologians have managed to reconcile it, with Christian theology.
Is there anything I didn’t footnote, in your previous commentary? But I’m sure these “big words”,would lose most folks here. The KISS philosophy actually works best (i.e. Keep it Simple and Stupid). Direct Response copywriters - for example - write to an eight grade level. But can make millions in royalties. Getting you to want and buy - some big ticket (or even small ticket) item.
No one disputes one’s right, to follow theology - as they see fit. Just trying to “sell” it as a product - in contract to other theological products. 
Well, off to the Franciscan nuns and their mindfulness meditation soon. I’ll leave you gentlemen, to your theological product selling.
Let me sell, my dinner catch tray.
More “dialogue” tomorrow, perhaps 
Randy said:
Weell eye amm a bitt offended d that yous guys wood daar bee tlkin bov our heds 
Thanks Randy… Guys, have fun while you are all doing this.