[tag]Holy-Fool-P-Zombie[/tag]
When you say “Not at all”, you mean 'not at all you believe all regions lead to God, or 'not at all it is heresy that all religions lead to God?
The belief that all religions lead to God is probably one of the most serious ‘non-Holy Spirit-blasphemy’ heresies you can get, take the words of The Lord Jesus Christ in John 16:4
JOHN 14:6:
-6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jesus didn’t say He was A way, he said He was THE way.
[tag]JasonPratt[/tag]
I don’t plan on making any more polls, I hope I don’t need to, I hope that there are few ultra-universalists and inclusivists on here, in comparison to the overwhelming number of universalistis I find elsewhere online who deny the important truths of the Trinity and free will.
I’m actually very orthodox. There’s nothing in the historical Christian creeds (i.e. Nicene and the Apostle’s Creed), that I would disagree with
I really don’t post article links, for the sake of posting links. But to enlighten people, to other theological, philosophical and Biblical perspectives - relevant to Christianity.
Every single person without exception will be saved by Jesus Christ, and by none other.
If Christ can work through a wretched donkey (cf. the story of Balaam in Numbers 22), how much more so can he work through non-Christian human beings? Christ’s hands are not tied by human error.
I think you are getting a term mixed up. My understanding of ultra-universalism, is that folks are immediately reconciled after death (or whenever things end), without the need of either corrective punishment or purification (for folks not reconciled to Christ). And it’s a term coined here. Geoffrey fits the Orthodox criteria, since he is Eastern Orthodox. Others here (and elsewhere) may not fit that category.
I like the percentage pie chart, that the article included:
For someone who follows the universal position, along with the historical creeds and orthodox Christian teachings, check out this article (mentioned earlier) at Is Hell Eternal Punishment, Eternal Death or Disciplinary Restoration?. Instead of universalism, he uses the term Universal Restoration, which I believe Paidion likes (though he might differ a bit, with the author).
There are two points I agree with, that the video part 2 mentions (shared earlier), that are not really emphasized in the article:
The Lake of Fire is the Eastern Orthodox theological position, of being in the presence of God
That even if one is a Universal Restorationist, one can hold the viewpoint that some could cease to exist
One thing must be mentioned, regarding other religions and their methods of contemplation. I follow the model of the Tau Center at taucenter.org/. It is run by the Franciscan nuns, who also host a rehabilitation facility. As such, they offer public programs in various methods of contemplation. Like:
The Keatings centering prayer (Roman Catholic)
Mindfulness meditation (i.e. Buddhist)
Drumming Circle (in the Peruvian shaman tradition)
Taizé Prayer Service
Gong Sound Meditation
It’s similar to the famous Trappist monk Thomas Merton. He was an orthodox Roman Catholic and a book author (i.e. Seventh Story Mountain, Zen and the Birds of Appetite, New Seeds of Contemplation, etc.), but embraced and wrote about - Zen Buddhist meditation. Or the Native American holy people and medicine men - Fools Crow and Black Elk. Both these men followed the Native way of indigenous prayerful contemplation, but were also practicing Roman Catholics.
Everybody in this life is sinful. (Of course as an Orthodox believer I recognize Christ and the Theotokos as the two exceptions.) Therefore when a man dies, he must be purified. Ultra-universalism simply says that this purification is instantaneous. It does not take longer than 0.000000000000000001 of a second, or “the twinkling of an eye” (to adopt a phrase from St. Paul). This is no different than what a historic Protestant believes happens to a man who dies and goes to Heaven: His purification is instant rather than protracted. In contrast, “purgatorial universalism” (or whatever one wants to call it) believes that the post-mortem purification takes significantly longer than an instant. Some even believe it can take long ages. I guess it all comes down to the single question: “How fast can the enthroned Christ get the job done?”
Actually, the term “ultra-universalism” was not coined here. I remember first coming across it in a Protestant theological dictionary about 20 years ago. This article indicates that the term “ultra-universalism” was coined in the early 1800s: uudb.org/articles/hoseaballou.html
But since the article I referred to uses the term at What are the current views of Hell?? , it must have been coined elsewhere - like your article alludes to.
I think what STT meant was that he isn’t so much concerned about whether someone is ultra-u or not, compared with denying the Trinity and/or free will, even though he’s concerned enough to not bother with their opinions on those other more important matters and to hope there are only a few ultra-u’s on the board even if they all believed in free will and the Trinity.
Um… I think?
Actually, my impression over 8 years here now is that we have roughly half and half purgatorial and ultra universalists, with occasional fluctuations in the posting membership either direction. I suspect, although I can’t be sure, that we’re currently more ultra-u than purgatorial. It isn’t only a few ultra-u’s in any case. (The apostrophe there being a contraction, not a possessive, of course.)
As noted, we didn’t coin the term ultra-universalist, but someone started using it here long ago (evidently borrowing it directly or indirectly from Ballou, which I didn’t know, thanks! ) and it seems to be prevalent as a respectable and respectful nifty-sounding nickname.
(…um, you should definitely not look up and read Ballou, I think, STT. You’ll be a lot happier with Winchester.)
[tag]Holy-Fool-P-Zombie[/tag]
There won’t be anyone who hasn’t heard of Jesus:
MATTHEW 24:14:
-14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
According to inclusivism, what must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Jesus? does this also apply if they are worshiping a false god.
[tag]JasonPratt[/tag]
If there is half and half here with half of the people being ultra-universalists, then there is cause for concern, ultra-universalism is a serious heresy, countless times in the Bible there is warnings about the wrath of God and the coming judgement, an ultra-universalists needs to explain all this away, and pretty much remove The Book Of Revelation from the Bible.
I’m looking for people who believe in universal reconciliation that involves the judgment of God and post-mortem punishment (Matthew 25:46, Hebrews 10:31, Revelation 21:8), The Trinity (Titus 2:13, Hebrews, 1:8, 1 John 5:7) and free will (Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24, John 5:40 ,1 John 4:8, Revelation 22:17) and these people are very hard to find, I’m sick of going onto YouTube and thinking “oh here is a Christian universalist” and then listening to their videos and hearing false doctrines like:
-“Jesus is not God”
-“God is sovereign and controlling everyone”
-“The Trinity is a false doctrine”
I have to say, I have never heard of ultra-universalism before hearing it from Geoffrey on this forum And though I’m not sure what it entails, I myself like the term And I have to say that though I do not agree with his orthodox understanding of scripture, He is pretty sharp, and does challenge me. Keep it up Geoffrey
We need to love each other in the midst of controversy!
@davo
Anyway, I am seeking these people because one of the reasons I find it difficult to believe in Universalism is the simply overwhelming number of Christian universalists who deny said truths, finding some may help.
So may be you need to ponder or study what the folks here are sharing with you…(Paul’s patience) they all might not believe the same as each other, but most of them are very committed to figuring out what God wants us to do through Christ.
[tag]maintenanceman[/tag]
The problem is that the differences are not just simply non-essential doctrinal issues, it’s about Jesus being God (Trinity) and God’s character (free will).
-The Trinity: This is a very important truth because a denial of it usually leads to a denial of The Lord Jesus Christ being God.
-Free Will: This is also a very important truth because whether the punishment is eternal conscious torment, annihilation, or a restorative punishment, punishing someone for something they were predetermined to do is just plain wrong.
That is fine, but you seem to be wanting someone else to tell you about or direct you on doctrinal issues… You want to believe in the trinity, and Free Will, and yet you seem hesitant to take the stand yourself.
Maybe you should (and in a sense I think you are trying to do this) declare your position, see what kind of flak comes your way and address it.
Ok, but this seems a little odd… assuming you must presently believe in either ECT or annihilationism then HOW can you do this with any confidence given there are plenty in those camps that do not for example affirm the “Trinity”.
Again, I don’t find this very balanced because there are plenty on this forum who reject the notion of “The Trinity” and YET wholeheartedly affirm “The Lord Jesus Christ being God”.
Well I agree that “punishing someone for something they were predetermined to do is just plain wrong” BUT surely that is our human perspective and we can’t claim to know God’s ultimate mind on the matter; thought I choose to believe God has more grace than me so I conclude that your expressed sentiment, with which I agree, to be true.
Thank you very much for your kindness. I have nothing but love and warm regards for you and for all the other regulars here. Too bad we don’t have an embracing smilie. I’ll have to content myself with:
) and it seems to be prevalent as a respectable and respectful nifty-sounding nickname. 
You’ll be a lot happier with Winchester.)
