God Himself? Do you mean God the Father, or a trinity?
If Jesus is eternally begotten, what about when he died? Did ‘God the Son’ really die? But God is immortal…ah, I get mixed up, me.
Dangit, maybe Jason is right. Maybe I AM COD, or OD-C, or whatever the heck it is that I am. 
Dave, My hubby is OCD too. I’m just ADD (according to him). ALL God’s chillins gots to have letters to label 'em. I mean essentially God the Father. Jesus is the expression–the Word of God. Has there ever been a time that God did not/could not express Himself? I don’t see that as a possibility. If the Father exists, then the Son exists. They are one, though two persons. As for Jesus dying–I think that He did die as much as any human being CAN die–but in His dying, God the Father spoke most eloquently of all. Regarding His time in the grave, I think I agree with the traditions of the church re: the harrowing of hell. I’m not convinced by the argument that those who die cease to exist. I think Jesus set the sole of His sandal (in token of ownership) even in hell itself and then led its captivity captive, His own train of joyous “captives of love” on their way to freedom. After all, He told this story in parable form during His three years of earthly ministry. I believe that was a hint as to what He intended to do with His “time” in the grave.
Paidion, I respect you and your opinions and your wisdom. I disagree, but I do respect that you are a wise man and hold your beliefs for reasons that seem very, very good to you. I’m not going to argue about it. If you’re wrong, God will show you–and likewise for me.
If I am not mistaken, Cindy, you just exemplified ‘tolerance’ - the real thing, not the ‘newspeak’ version. Very good.
I’m no scientist by any means, but it would seem to me that time would be movement. Time could exist eternally if there is something that was always in motion. Since God is eternal, there would never have been nothing, and since one cannot create something out of nothing, then all that God has created would be eternal as well. In other words, there would be nothing that God could have used to create anything with except for the eternal elements of Himself. So in this, all that God created comes forth from Him. We are not God ( the Father, Logos, the Spirit, the essence, or whatever else one wants to call Him) but He is in everything that is made. These things do not cease to exist. We may not be able to see them, but they are still there in another form. For example, a puddle of water “disappears” into the atmosphere, however it is not gone. If one looks at the creation, the same can be said of all of it.
I believe that we are all children of God, and when we listen to and obey the voice of the Father that is inside of us, we become Father and Son(ourselves) together as one. We also become as one with all other believers, humanity itself and the creation. As it says in the Scriptures, those who honor the Father, honor the Son(ourselves/man). Likewise, when we do not honor the Father, we not only bring dishonor upon ourselves, but we dishonor our friends and family, other believers, the human race, etc. etc.
Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”
I know it is a common idea, that is is saying that when Jesus ascended to heaven, he took brought with him those who were supposedly captives in Hades. Some translations even render it as “He led a host of captives.” If Paul had meant that, why didn’t he say it?
“Led captive” is one word, and “captivity” is one word. I would translate it as “He captivated captivity and gave gifts to people.” The two seem to be meant to go together. When Jesus ascended He became the life-giving Spirit. Then through his spirit gave gifts to people, as recorded in
Acts 2. But first He captivated captivity. If captivity itself is captivated, there is freedom indeed! Prior to Jesus’ ascension Jesus’ disciples were not fully free to walk in the Spirit. Remember that Peter, who had walked with Jesus, even denied Jesus. But Jesus liberated his many disciples so that they were able to receive the spiritual gifts that He provided:
To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (1 Cor 12:7-11 ESV)
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[tag]Cindy Skillman[/tag]
Thank you for the links, that should give me something to listen to.
Anyway, for some links to the overwhelming numbers of Christian Univeralists who deny The Trinity and/or free will:
youtube.com/channel/UCS-vTscRKVnTq87CvIFdSFw
youtube.com/channel/UCUJIaIEo9mS8o4vU30g351Q
youtube.com/user/truth96130
youtube.com/user/enkei011
youtube.com/channel/UCfaoWemOkxBawheqgOs5-Uw
[tag]Geoffrey[/tag]
Would have Hitler learned anything from this though?
ISAIAH 26:9:
-9: With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The point of judgement (at least in this verse) is for the people to learn righteousness.
@Padion
It’s interesting you talk about the word ‘captivity’ because I just made a new topic about Sodom and that word ‘captivity’ (link - [God will restore Sodom’s CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.)),
some translations translated Ezekiel 16:35 to say that God will restore the ‘fortunes’ of Sodom and Universalists appeal to this, HOWEVER, other translations say God will restore the ‘captivity’ of Sodom, and of course the English translations are just that, translations, but the inspired Hebrew also says that God will restore Sodom’s ‘captivity’.
The Strong’s Definition for the Hebrew word ‘שְׁבוּת’ translated as “the captivity” means ‘exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).’.
One could see Ezekiel 16:53 as God saying he will resurrect Sodom and Samaria to make them captives of Hell.
God Bless
Christ Be With You All
Yes.
I doubt whether he would have learned a thing! He wouldn’t have to learn anything since instant sinlessness would be thrust upon him apart from anything he chose.
I would say that this is the moment of enlightenment. Those of us who have studied mathematics will recognize the “eureka” moment. Sometimes we struggle to grasp a certain concept or how to do a particular type of problem. Before the moment of enlightenment all is opaque and senseless. Then suddenly, out of the blue, “Eureka!” It all makes sense, and we wonder how we didn’t see it all along because it’s all so simple and obvious and couldn’t possibly be any other way.
I do not believe that we sinners will have righteousness thrust upon us like the blow of a knife, whether we will or no. I instead believe that the omnipotent Christ, revealed in all His naked glory, will correct us instantly. That instant will contain our free choice to be conformed to Christ. That instant will contain our repentance, our turning away from sin. It will contain our correction. It will contain our education, our enlightenment. It will contain our liberation from sin. It will contain our glorification. It will contain our coming to perfection.
From all I’ve read here on this message board, Paidion, I think you and I are on the same page when it comes to soteriology. (We studied at the feet of the same master, after all: George MacDonald.) Our difference is only a detail of how long does our complete salvation from sin take after the death of the body? You think it will take longer than an instant. I think it will take only an instant.
Geoffrey said:
Your Idea brings up many valid points. I tend to think that we will be at a state of understanding of our redemption the moment we pass from this life to the next. No matter what we have done (Hitler?) we will be in the presence of the almighty Creator.
The problem that many have is in the thinking that a life time of incorrigible sin can not be forgiven instantaneously… (I’m on your side on this) 
I believe this (that it can be forgiven instantaneously) is the gospel message. Fulfilled, said… forgiven, done. Because Christ did it for us.
Somehow we need to get beyond the eye for an eye mindset. What say you? 
Yes it’s got a slight smack of self-righteousness to it in terms of ‘I’ve toiled all my life and along come this joker and gets as good finally deciding 5min to midnight’ …it’s pretty much the attitude reflected in… Mt 20:1-15; Acts 10:15; Jon 4:1-4; 1Sam 30:22-24.
Chad, I have no problem with instantaneous forgiveness. None at all.
That which I doubt is instantaneous transformation of character. In this life, rehabilitation and reformation takes time. Why should it be any different in the next? Because of our tendency to persevere in our wrongdoing a period of correction (not punishment) is necessary.
I would agree with this sentiment… however, where does one find ‘character transformation’ described in terms of that which many on this forum understand in terms of a postmortem burning or fire??? Surely God’s chastising IN THIS LIFE (as one might know it) could be nowhere described in such terms… so why IF such is a possibility or requirement postmortem would such be any different? Most OT texts ascribing God’s fiery judgements seem relative to THIS LIFE and seem indicative of the SEVERITY of judgement as opposed to a particular “form” of judgement, i.e., in this case “burning”.
I know you favour the likes of Mk 9:49 but there really is no evidence from the text itself that this is indicative of 1) postmortem, or 2) being universal in application; there just isn’t. Quite the opposite from the text I should think… the whole section from vs. 30 to 50 is CLEARLY Jesus instructing his disciples and THEIR character-ship toward each other; the latter part of vs. 50 caps this off in a not too dissimilar manner as Paul’s instruction in Col 4:6.
IF one takes Rom 6:7 as particularly pertinent to believers there certainly can be no postmortem impost for sin because one has ALREADY been “freed” or “cleared”… so why the added yoke of performance measurement i.e., evidenced somehow in terms of ‘character assessment’ to a postmortem scenario that isn’t in any real sense validated in Scripture? Again quite the opposite I should imagine, as in, who in all their prideful arrogance or blind ignorance would not respond in worshipful contrition postmortem, in kind, before the very presence of God as is reflected in these Scriptures below:
Hi Paidion.
I will begin by saying that I have a bunch of respect for your knowledge (especially in the Greek) and your obvious commitment to Christ.
Now on to forum stuff.
You and I have locked horns over this for a while now. And the difficulty I see with your above statement is that it SEEMS to go against what you have said in earlier posts. And I will allow some leeway of my inability to understand
But you have been quite vocal on your belief that there can be no forgiveness without repentance, thus a person has to make a conscious decision to change, before God’s forgiveness can be applied… In other words ‘Atonement’ can not be attained without repentance.
My motto question has always been, 'IS CHRIST’S ATONEMENT ACTUAL OR CONDITIONAL.
My position is that from a covenantal standpoint, Israel, and thus humanity, through Christ’s doing, have been forgiven, in spite of our selves.
There is a preponderance of scripture that deals with Christ’s call for the Jews of his day. I think Christ came to redeem Israel, plain and simple, but through that process, the gentiles (nations… ALL OF THEM 
ALL OF US ) were included.
Yes, we may, or should, or maybe won’t heed God’s Spirit in the call to come to him, but we would live better happier lives with Him than without him. The Idea of time to repent would in my estimation be qualified by the circumstance one finds him or her self in. In this life I would say even those who strive for perfection fall short. But I believe that they are rewarded with the attempt. I believe in blessings and miracles.
For me that is the 2016 gospel message.
After we die, It is time to stand before the King and there is a lowly man born in a stable that took away the sin of the world.
Thanks Paidion.
Peace
We find it throughout the teachings of Christ and his apostles. That’s what salvation is all about. To be saved from our sins is to have our character transformed. If this doesn’t happen, we will go on doing wrong.
I don’t think God does much chastising in this life except to let the consequences of our wrongdoing have their hurtful effect on us. (To quote a common proverb, “Hold your hand in the fire and you will get burned.”) The character transformation takes place in the next life for the unbeliever. The fire of God’s love does the purification (with the appropriate response from those receiving the correction). There will be discomfort in resistance. Those who do resist will suffer from the same fire in which those who have submitted during this life, will rejoice. Some may hold out a long time, but there’s an infinite time ahead. Eventually all who coöperate with God will be changed into His likeness.
That is what the texts say; that is how Moses and some of the prophets understood God. We can be thankful that Jesus revealed God as He really is, “Kind to ungrateful people and evil people.” He said that if we love our enemies and do good toward them, we will prove ourselves to truly be children of God.
So what happens to those who have not been cleared? Will God bring eternal retribution to them? Or did Christ’s sacrifice cover saint and sinner alike? If the latter, tell me what would have happened to us all if Christ had not died on our behalf?
However the New Testament writers indicate that Christ died so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. THIS is the real reason for Christ’s death on our behalf, not merely to “cover us with a cloak of righteousness so that when God looks at us He doesn’t see our continuing sin but Christ’s righteousness.” Virtually all of the reasons given for Christ’s death in the New Testament is that we may be changed in our values and behaviours:
*I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.*
Each one of these results in a character change. The one from Titus results in “performance”—no less—purification and performance. To be zealous for good deeds there needs to be a change in character. If no change is need, then Christ died to no purpose. The whole passage is Titus is worth examining again. God’s enabling grace has come to us through Christ’s sacrifice, and is appropriated by faith TRAINING US:
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
So this is the way the character of God’s people is changed in this life—through the process of salvation, a life-long process, a process that will some day be complete:
Philippians 1:6 I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
So what about the majority of people who have nothing to do with Christ? God wants righteous people, but many of them are hateful, murderers, etc. They must be changed. It’s not going to happen here without Christ, and so it will happen post-mortem. God wants righteous people. God will continue to work with them until ALL are reconciled to Him and become righteous.
A goodly number may BEGIN to respond, but their “worship” will be pretty shallow until their characters are changed in order to have a propensity toward meaningful worship.
Yep I get the character transformation but what you’ve misread was my reference to the language used in reaching this “in terms of a postmortem burning or fire???”— it’s THAT aspect I’m NOT finding “throughout the teachings of Christ and his apostles.”
Is that because in your estimation you haven’t seen/experienced much of it? What do you make of the numerous THIS LIFE examples of OC Israel? Or, what do you make of the following?
There is just no way possible to read postmortem into any of this above; this would seem to me, at least, to have clear THIS LIFE applicability alone.
So this is a major tenet of your position, YET you seem unable to back this up with relevant texts that actually state this. You ARE stating it, as it is your position, BUT no texts of Scripture say what you’re saying… this is WHY I’m questioning its validity.
And this then seems to cut right across in contradiction to your thoughts above as per… “I don’t think God does much chastising in this life…” ???
So we seem in agreement here and yet as such this applied to the here-and-now, NOT postmortem — my very point.
Christ’s sacrifice indeed covered (cleared) ALL in that all “saints” were in fact “sinners” and “enemies” WHEN Christ’s intervention reconciled ALL, as per Paul…
Again, Paul is very clear as he likewise writes here…
I’m not sure this can be any clearer.
I think this is a massive overstatement… SOME “people who have nothing to do with Christ” MAY be “hateful, murderers, etc” BUT the bulk of humanity is simply ignorant of God’s grace, and I have to say a large portion of this IMO is due to the poor representation “the Church” has made with regards to the message of God.
I think “real reason” misses much that I’ve (or more properly Paul) laid out above. All those texts you’ve given are the consequential benefits for believers in service of Him and others… so they are crucial as you rightly point out; yet you miss the point IF it is not understood that these APPLY to BELIEVERS. Hence to whom much has been given much is required, etc.
Old covenant Israel was covered annually by the atonement, and yet within that covered community were chosen ones, called and appointed to minister ON BEHALF OF the rest. These were they who came under stricter scrutiny. The new covenant is no different other than it is perfect and more comprehensive in scope.
Paidion , you have made some very good points.
The way I see it, Jesus is not a “third person”, nor is He a substitute for our own righteousness. We can refer to Jesus as the Logos or the Word of God for simplicity, so that we can all understand who or what God is. But I believe that the Logos /Word IS God, and He is in us all. We can never be rid of Him, for He has woven Himself into the fabric of our very being. It would be like cutting the heart out of one’s own body and expecting to live. It can’t be done. We can try to hide or ignore Him, but only for a time, for God does not die, nor can He be destroyed. God is already present in us, and obeying His voice is righteousness. If we turn from Him, we will suffer. Who knows what happens to us after we leave this earth? There could many “worlds” that we may enter into, as is true on earth. One thing we do know for sure is that God’s word will still be there. I suppose that the only thing to do then is to prepare ourselves beforehand for whatever comes next.
Davo, much was said by both Christ and the apostles about people who practise evil being sentenced to post-mortem fire (in some instances “lasting fire”). We know that fire is a purifying agent. Salt also is a purifying agent. Our Lord’s words “EVERYONE will be salted with fire” suggest that everyone will be purified with fire. What is that fire? It is God Himself! "For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29). God is love! That love will be experienced by his own in the next life basically as love, but perhaps as a bit of purifying fire as well. For those who have opposed Him in life, it will be experienced as painful. But the fire of God’s love will be purifying in any case. It will utterly consume all the evil it finds in all people. This does not happen in the present life, and so it must happen in the next.
All gobbledygook … No where in the scriptures is there a hint of post mortem punishment or as you say… Correction. It isn’t there. The Hebrews context is to the Israelites and what they were about to go through. They were headed for destruction. Thus the verbiage of fire. The Jews that were rebellious, were going to literally go through fire. An awful fire. Jesus came to save as many of them as he could.
Show me if I am wrong.
You will not have to. Cause it will not happen Especially to you qaz… You have the heart of a person who wants to know the Lord. Even if we may disagree about the particulars, you are searching. That is cool.
Peace
Chad