The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Pope Francis seems even closer to UR than previous 2 Popes!

Not sure there are any lists but I think it’s only the last three Popes that have been edging towards universalism proper – but Pope John 24th (of Vatican II) may well have been a closet universalist.

Regarding Catholics Saints: here are two for you – one possible one certain
Blessed John Ruysbroeck (possibly a Universalist but I’d need to know more about him)
Mother Julian of Norwich (certainly a hopeful universalist)

Oh and Saint Teresa of Liseux also seems to have had strong Universalist tendencies.

Blessings

Dick

I would have said St. Theresa was certain; and the recent St. Faustina Kowalska of Poland strongly tending (at least. She was a follower of St. Theresa, too.)

Is Gregory Nyssa regarded as a saint? He’s certainly regarded as a doctor in both the East and West, but maybe only the East regards him as a saint… (Update: regarded as a saint both in the East and the West, just checked.)

The Eastern Orthodoxy certainly regard as saints several Christian universalists, both of the Saint Isaacs of Syria for example (though the one who wrote a lot of their hymns is more famous than the one who moved to Rome).

I’ll go with that Jason - St Teresa as certain; yes. And yes I think the Catholics would also regard the Ecumenical saints as theirs too. :smiley: And of course there are Catholic theologians who are universalists - some very prestigious ones (and you’re far more gened up on these than I am) :slight_smile: Are you interested in these theologians too Lily?

Oh yes I know of two Catholic heretics who were universalists and fell foul of the inquisition in different ways because of this in the sixteenth century. They are (were)

Guillaume Postel (ended life in an asylum for the insane) and Francesco Pucci (ended life in prison after re-converting back to Catholicism)

Tonight wile I was cleaning the library I found a bookmark in the recycling bin with a prayer of Pope John Paul II.
Thought I’d share it here in case you guys hadn’t heard it before, as it’s pretty cool:

Thanks guys - sorry for late reply…I have guests in my house. Really I’m interested in anyone who was/is Catholic. Like I said, my friend is Catholic and is interested in my beliefs, but only wanted to read things by Catholics. Thought I’d see if there were any out there…

Lilly, what would you like to know. I am a former Catholic and fairly well acquainted with Catholic teaching on this subject.

“God’s forgiveness is stronger than any sin” - another gem from Pope Francis :sunglasses:

i wonder what he’d say about the “unpardonable sin?”

Yes, I’ve been wondering that too.

Hmm . . . there ought to be an “Ask the Pope” site somewhere. Hmm . . . articles.washingtonpost.com/2012 … -xvi-tweet

Ah yes, Alex. I see you’ve already found this. So ask him. :wink: Who knows; maybe he’ll reply.

Okay never mind. I figured out how to ask him myself. :slight_smile:

ah i didn’t know that existed…let us know if you get a reply, Cinders :slight_smile:

i’m really liking this guy…he’s extending the scope of grace incredibly far…he’s advocating really getting our hands dirty and HELPING people (he washed some prisoners feet!!!)…he’s eschewing many of the trappings and perks of being a pope. good on him! if i wasn’t happy with Anglicanism, i’d be tempted to go Catholic with him at the helm!

I imagine that Pope Francis would simply quote the Catholic Catechism:

Kind of suspect the same as Akimel, even though that runs at odds with his salvific reassurances about God being competent and strong enough to save any sinner.

Still, wouldn’t be the first time a well-meaning theologian accidentally stumbled into a position he wouldn’t actually affirm if his implications were spelled out. :wink: And given their sympathies to Christian universalists in recent decades, it’s hard not to wonder about the recent Popes.

Which might be the strategy, of course. :wink:

Whereas I’m 100% sure that’s the strategy! :laughing:

Hey here’s something interesting I’ve just found on St Therese the Little Flower (mentioned above in this thread)-

St Thérèse’s most important contribution is her insistence on radical confidence in God’s goodness and expressing that confidence by returning love to God’s Love in every aspect of one’s living. In an era where piety was rife with the fear of divine offense, her critical insight was to realize that what God had for her failures was not blame and anger but the greatest tenderness, and hence chose to profit from and deeply value her innate weakness instead of giving in to discouragement and mediocrity. She had the vision and ingenuity to take her greatest obstacle — the tendency always to fall into the same faults — and make it serve, by her trust in God’s merciful love, as her means to become a saint. This is the heart of what the novices under her direction nicknamed ‘the little way’, since it is a way to holiness suited for those, like herself, whom Thérèse called ‘little ones’ (ie the spiritually poor, the anawim). She is revered as a saint even by some Muslims and Buddhists, and is one of very few western saints honored by the Orthodox churches. Fr Robert Llewelyn often said she is the closest modern-day saint to Julian, and in certain essential aspects she closely echoes Julian of Norwich’s theology. Her teaching also has much in common with that of Francis de Sales, and especially Jean-Pierre de Caussade.

Thérèse’s powerful teaching was distorted by the affectations of her cult and its oversimplification of her thought, and further crippled by what amounted to a very aggressive smear campaign (c 1910-1950s) that arose in reaction to the excesses of her cult’s fin-de-siècle imagery and language. Seldom has a saint suffered more misrepresentation at the hands of both sincere piety and zealous reinterpretation. Those (like myself) who are repelled by the still-peddled floweriness would benefit from the scholarship of Conrad de Meester, Guy Gaucher, and Elizabeth Obbard on this greatest of French saints.

For readers following along at home, she’s also known as St. Thérèse of Lisieux.

Ignatius Press is a major worldwide Roman Catholic operation with close ties to the papacy, and having bought a few things from them over the years (…well, more than a few things I guess) I’m on their mailing list for life. :wink: (…from which I continue to buy a few things I guess. :mrgreen: )

They’re one of the few places, maybe the only place, to get the whole library of Von Balthasar in English, and a few years ago they promoted him HARD. Even today, at least once a year they’ll have a catalog listing all his major works. (Not by itself, but he’ll have a whole page and a half devoted to him.)

Well, in the last couple of years I’ve noticed a strong trend toward marketing St. Therese and St. Faustina. That’s partly due, I’m sure, to St. Faustina’s Divine Mercy movement being promoted with increasing strength – all the Popes since JP2 have been members, and when a movie was recently made about JP1 who reigned only 33 days one of the selling points was that Faustina had predicted he would only reign about a month! But less obviously, he was a proponent of her mission, too.

And St. Faustina was an avowed follower of St. Therese’s “little way”. :slight_smile:

So now there are all kinds of books and films about both those saints, from little children’s books, to devotionals, to biographies (and not just of them but their relatives!), to scholarly examinations.

They’re easier to market than ancient patristics, of course; and I admit this is somewhat offset by a recent push to market St. Augustine to popular audiences. Then again, what does this marketing focus on? Take a guess. :wink: (Hint: not his ideological connections to the hopelessness of Calvinism. :mrgreen: )

Between this, and the late JP2’s attempts at reclaiming Origen from the millennia smear campaign against him, and the peacemaking going on between the RCC (with EOx help) and the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East, what would I expect to come soon if this was a generational project (perhaps kicked off by St. Faustina–and Jesus?!) to bring the RCC over to at least the EOx permissive attitude toward Christian universalism? Or even further?

1.) Go hard next on Gregory Nyssus. He’s practically the last saint regarded as a doctor of the church by both the RCC and the EOx, and not only by them but by Anglicanism and Lutheranism as well! And how impeccable is the orthodoxy of the Father of Orthodoxy? The answer to this is DUH!

2.) Work hard to promote Diodore of Tarsus (founder of the Antioch school, whose orthodoxy was never smeared), teacher of Theodore of Mospuestia, and work hard to reclaim Theodore from the smear campaigns. They and other ancient Syrian universalists would be especially good to promote in the current world political climate.

3.) Find an orthodox saint also beloved by the Oriental Orthodox. Maybe Dionysius the Blind, the greatest successor to the Alexandrian school after Origen, and blessed for the task by Athanasius himself.

4.) While you’re at it, promote Athanasius because dang why not! Again ALL trinitarian branches of the church claim to follow and honor him.

5.) Pick up Dr. Ramelli’s recent work and make it more popularly available. :sunglasses:

6.) Even if Origen is too touchy (but continue rehabilitating him from the smear campaigns, and point out how all those other saints revered him), go for Clement of Alexandria his teacher. Take the opportunity to talk about his teachers, the founders of the Alexandrian school, since they’re far more obscure than he is.