The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Post-mortem Repentance and Faith

Theology Biblical Theology
#21

Hi Tom,

I think I understand what you’re saying. However, I’m simply talking about people’s subjective experience/perception of reality - and while I do find the idea of libertarian freedom incoherent and the idea of determinism (i.e., “cause and effect”) intellectually satisfying and consistent with my own experience, I don’t see the question as being necessarily relevant here. I do not think ambiguity and epistemic distance “matters” in the sense that I understand you (and others who hold to LFW) think it matters (i.e., in that it allows for, or makes possible, libertarian choice). I think it matters simply because God wants some to be saved by faith now (in a context of some ambiguity and lack of full clarity), and everyone else to be saved apart from faith, later (when all ambiguity is removed). To me, asking why that matters is like asking why anything matters. It’s just the way God wants it, I suppose. I’m just trying to be consistent with my understanding of what Scripture seems to teach (I’m thinking primarily of 1 Tim 4:10 here). And as far as your equating “faith” with “trust,” I would only add that faith is trust in a context of some ambiguity and unrealized expectations. I do think we will “trust” (in the sense of rely on) God even after all ambiguity is removed. But at that point, I think it will have ceased to be “faith,” in the Biblical sense of the word (i.e., according to the definition provided in Heb 11:1).

I have to disagree your assertion that “knowing as we’re known is the eschatological conclusion or ‘telos’ of our relationship with God.” I see the “knowing in full” of which Paul speaks here as a means to something even greater: the love for God that I think will be inevitably produced in our hearts by this sudden knowing. This, I think, is the true ‘telos.’ Does that answer your question, or no?

Finally, I never thanked you for the personal testimony you shared on another (soon to be renamed?) thread, and the excellent response you gave to the question of why we should share the good news of God’s love in Christ with those who are presently lost when we believe that all will be saved by that love, ultimately. And not that you have thought this, but I sincerely hope you don’t think that, as a determinist, I find the sacrifices you and your family have made on their behalf to be any less meaningful or worthy of admiration!

#22

Aaron.
Why can’t you just be a Christian…rather than I’m a determinist or calvinist or preterist … I know… how about just being a disciple of Jesus Christ without the labels. geeeeez. That is the problem with Christianity…man made labels and religion.

#23

And the scripture quoted says that God will rerconcile all things to himself therefore by your own reasoning you have established post-mortem salvation at last!

#24

Jeff.
That settles it. I have been defeated by one scripture being interpreted by an unbeliever.Lol. I’m only being serious Jeff, relax. :wink:

#25

BA, I can refer to myself using several different labels without ascribing the same amount of importance to each label. I’m not “just” a Christian for the same reason I’m not “just” a husband, a son, a brother, etc. It’s all about context, BA. I only think and refer to myself as a determinst when the subject of LFW/indeterminism is being talked about. Gimme a break. :unamused:

#26

BA,

Do you know what the definition of ‘refute’ is? You never show how the wall of scripture that has been offered against your position actually supports your position (which it must do for your position to be correct).

I’m afraid ducking superior evidence by invoking the ‘you’re an unbeliever’ rule is childish at best and is frankly bordering on the disrespectful.

Rgardless of my state of belief/unbelief you cannot deny that Jonah gets released from hell or that he said the bars of the earth enclosed around him forever but was only 3 days.

For once in your posting life here address the question - if forever is only 3 days in this example then it is possible that the smoke of torment rising day and night forever could also be of limited (but unknown) duration.

#27

Jeff.

you said: I’m afraid ducking superior evidence by invoking the ‘you’re an unbeliever’ rule is childish at best and is frankly boardering on the disrespectful.

Born Again: First, you admitted to me to be an unbeliever. Second, God has much to say about unbelievers…especially in (1 Cor 2:12-14.) Bordering on disrespectful? If that is the case you are offended by the word of God…not me…Jeff.

#28

When Paul preached to the Greeks do you think he wouldn’t let them get a word in edgeways or put their point of view?

God himself says ‘Come let us reason together’

Also my views of these scriptures are held by others here who are Christians (and you’ve already said if UR is true Christianity isn’t - implying that they are not Christians).

Shall I just get one of the Christians here to put my arguments for me? What will you say to them - you won’t be able to use your unbeliever’ card with them will you?

#29

Jeff.
God uses the unbeliever card Jeff. Not me.

#30

BA,

If I, as a believer, say that I agree with what Jeff has said, and request that you answer his question, will you deign to reply?

Or do I have to restate everything he said in my own words for it to count?
Sonia

#31

Sonia.

Read 1 Cor 2: 12-14. Unbelievers are dead spiritually and are not capable of understanding the spiritual things. The bible is a spiritual book that only can be understood by being born again.

#32

Where in that passage does it say “unbelievers” or anything about anyone being “dead spiritually”?
Sonia

#33

Sonia.

Read 1 Cor 2: 10-14. It is very straight forward about natural man. especially verse 14.

#34

You’re not listening, it doesn’t say “unbeliever” in that verse. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Enough–it’s been fun, but I have real life things to do today!
Sonia :sunglasses:

#35

Sonia.

Natural man is an unbeliever. C’mon Sonia.

#36

But is every unbeliever a natural man?

#37

And is every believer spiritual? (1 Cor 3:1-3)

:sunglasses:

#38

Didn’t want this question to get buried in the thread… BA, please respond? Sorry if I missed it elsewhere, but I would really like to understand how you would interpret this passage. Thanks.

#39

Hsmom.

Philippians 2:10-11. Paul predicts that one day, " That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10-11). Here the Universalists insist, unbelievers are clearly in view in the phrase, “under the earth.”

No one denies that unbeliever will eventually confess Jesus is Lord, but that does not mean they will be saved. Even demons believe that Jesus is Lord, but they refuse to submit to Him (James 2:19). Believing that Jesus is Lord will not save anyone. Only belief in Christ (James 2:21-26) saves. “Those under the earth” (= the lost) in this text, make a confession from their mouth, but this acknowledgment will not be from the heart. For salvation, Paul insisted, one must both confess and “believe in your heart” (Romans 10:9).

#40

Well I don’t “insist that unbelievers are clearly in view” in the phrase, “under the earth,” BA. Sounds more like it’s your own assumption. The entire expression (“in heaven, in earth, and under the earth”) seems to be just a poetic way of conveying the idea of universality. In Exodus 20:4, God declares: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” Here, all that is below sea level is referred to as being “under the earth,” or under the inhabitable land. Evidently, Paul’s expression was a Hebraism.

To bow and confess Jesus as Lord is an act of worship, BA; the scene Paul is describing is that of universal worship. He even says that this will be “to the glory of God the Father.” How would an empty confession glorify God? We know from Scripture that God is not glorified by those who “honor him with their lips,” while their hearts are “far from him” (Mark 7:6). Instead, it is a heart that is full of thanksgiving toward God for his abundant grace that Paul says is “to the glory of God” (see 2 Cor 4:15). Furthermore, Paul asserts that it is only in the Holy Spirit that anyone can exclaim “Jesus is Lord” (1 Cor 12:3). To say that “this acknowledgment will not be from the heart” is a baseless assertion without a shred of evidence.