I’m reading Jerry Walls’ book on heaven. Walls is a protestant arminian but he believes in purgatory. He notes that many protestants who don’t believe in purgatory believe that instant sanctification happens at the moment of Christians’ death. If God can do this for Christians, as so many protestants believe, it’s hard to see why he couldn’t likewise do it for unbelievers.
Just a question, what in your view does sanctification mean?
Developing good character.
Here on earth?
I suppose it could happen on earth and postmortem.
So how does that happen? Parents teaching? Society punishing? God moving a dead soul into purgatorial cleansing or into hell?
My question is about how you perceive it happens, what is your perception and what evidence do you have?Not what others tell you or write about the subject. If you think good character is important, than where is that guidance coming from? Or where does it have to come from?
It comes from Jesus’ death and resurrection! That is the very reason Jesus sacrificed Himself for us—to save us from SIN. Not from the effects of sin (that which harms other people or oneself), but from SIN ITSELF. This is clear from Scripture for those willing to accept it.
I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Jesus came to save the world from sin, sins & all the negative things resulting from such, e.g. death, dying, sickness, disease, demon possession, war, darkness, blindness, ignorance, depression, mental illness, condemnation, lies, etc.
He won’t because Scripture says so & He doesn’t want robots. And other reasons given against UU: Ultra universalism
Origen, are you perfectly sanctified? If not, if you were to suddenly die, do you think you would go to hell or would you escape it because you’re a Christian?
It could be that the people that are the subject of this song could use a little sanctification?
I don’t see how it would make them a robot. They would be transformed with new natures. All desire for sin is removed from their hearts. As a result all they will ever want to do is love God and His children. They will be like God in that it would be impossible for them to sin. But they still would choose what they most want. But because all sin and sinful desires are removed from their hearts all they will ever want to do is love God and each other. They choose Christ because they want to. This is the essence of true freedom. After ego death they would have a new nature.
qaz, do you really believe in the Dante’s and the RC’s view of HELL? You may be asking the wrong questions of the wrong people IMHO. H means humble.
The view of sanctification might well have nothing to do with a so called ‘going to hell’. That, I think, belongs to the well weathered thread of atonement, reconciliation and if there are pizza’s in heaven.
My gosh another rational person who listens to bob and tom. THANKS THANKS!
Forcing salvation on someone without allowing them to choose to accept it of their own freewill is robotic. It’s like humans are puppets entirely controlled by God’s remote control device.
origen, do you think you’ll have to go to hell to be perfectly sanctified before heaven?
It’s not forcing salvation against the will but performing a miracle and transforming their nature as all desire for sin is removed. Because all desire for sin is removed and God plants the desire for Himself in their heart they WANT to choose Christ. They choose Christ because they WANT to. This is true freedom. God miraculously opens the eyes of the heart to see and behold His glory (Beauty) and be transformed by it.
It’s simply a case of Divine prerogative… it has NOTHING to do with robots or freewill. Consider Saul…
Acts 9:1-4; 22:14 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” — Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
In qaz’s UU theology it would be an instant irresistibly forced without freewill choice puppet robot like salvation. That would include all of the most wicked on earth, such as Holy Spirit blasphemers, those whose free choice had been to willfully habitually sin after knowing the truth (Heb.10:26-29; cf Heb.6:4-6) & the like.
Saul received mercy because, as the Scriptures say, his former life of sin was (1) done in ignorance and (2) he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. Unlike those referred to in my previous post.