The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Pull up a chair, BA

Theology Biblical Theology
#21

Tom.

you said: “…whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

What word or phrase does the clause “…from the foundation of the world” qualify? Well, it COULD qualify “written” and tell us WHEN the names were recorded. Or is could qualify “Lamb” and describe the origin and ownership of the book (e.g., this has always been the Lamb’s book, from the start). Or it could qualify “slain” and tell us something about the origin and original intentions and purposes of the pre-incarnate Christ/Lamb. I favor the last of these (without going into a lot about why). But the second (which I take to be the point in 17.8) is also probable

Born Again: LOL. Well, How about it teaches all 3. 1) It teaches “whose names are not written” and tells us “WHEN” their names were not written…therefore, Names were written at the same time that those names who were not written. “When”… Before the foundations of the earth. I really don’t see how you can say deny this. 2) Describes the origin of the book.( Lamb’s book). 3) It teaches about the purpose of the pre-incarnate-Christ.

Tom said: I don’t think my name is eternally recorded in the book, and I assume that anybody in the Lake of Fire gets their name recorded in the book by doing what they failed previously to do—repent and believe.

Born Again: Tom, if your name is not recorded in the book of life you are not born again and probably never will be. Now I know why you don’t give scriptural support of people repenting and believing after they die because you “assume” that anybody in the Lake of fire gets their name in the book by doing what they failed previously. You know its coming Tom. Show me in scripture where people repent and believe while they are in the Lake of fire and get their names recorded…otherwise your “assumption” becomes a hypothetical theory with no scripture support to make it true.

Tom said: Now, I may be wrong, but at least I’m HONEST and confront the possibilities. You pretend there are no possibilities BUT YOUR OWN and that’s why I have trouble taking you seriously. Your interpretation reduces to “quoting” the passage, as if your quoting it alone proves your understanding of it. You argue like this: “Why else could it mean but what I think?” That’s not an argument. And you poopoo’d 3.5 and made no comment on the “erasing of names” from the book.

Born Again: I’m not being honest? I clearly explained to you to show me how my interpretation was wrong and to prove your theory from scripture…you did neither. I did not poopoo on 3.5 and originally made a comment on it and went back and edited it. Sorry. Here is my original comment: I do not believe people have their names erased from the book of life.

Tom, unless you can show scripture support of name adding to the book of life when scripture clearly indicates “whose names were not written” ( meaning names “were written” at the same time that those whose names were not written) “when” before the foundation of the earth…then your possibility becomes a hypothetical theory with no real scripture support. :wink:

#22

Like I said today on another thread (“Post-mortem Repentance and Faith”), I’m through with you B. And I’m a patient guy!

T

#23

Tom.
I’m very disappointed in you… after all… your the one that told me to pull up a chair…and so I did. Tom, I respect you and your views, but when you start telling me things you cannot prove from the bible…then throw a hissy fit…that concerns me.

Is it fair enough Tom… if you cannot support your comments with scripture that they become Hypothetical Theories? :unamused:

#24

You’re right B. You pulled your chair up and I wasn’t ready for the overwhelming power of your argumentation. It was just too much. I can’t take it. You exposed me and I threw a fit. I invented all my reasons for believing in UR out of thin air and nobody’s been able to expose my lies and deception until you came along. Dang.

You should publish immediately. I mean it. To not do so would be a crime against truth itself. You could just gather all your posts from here and everywhere else you’ve debated and publish them as is. I wouldn’t change a thing. I mean, how does one improve upon the stark naked truth? You could just QUOTE Scripture and blinded eyes are opened. Don’t wait Bro. You owe it to the world.

Me? I have to go convalesce for a while.

:cry:

#25

Tom.
Your sarcasm admits your defeat in failure to come up with scripture support of your comments…so you throw the towel in with disrespectful sarcasm and a hissy fit. Oh well. I think we both know the truth of the scriptures I presented in this thread. If you take nothing else out of this debate…take this…your still my brother in Christ and I love you regardless of are differences. :wink:

#26

MY “defeat in failure.” Yes. What can I say but…you win AGAIN? You’re relentless BA. Leave me time at least to lick my wounds.

T

#27

Well said Tom. :mrgreen:
So it is when the carnal man who’s name is never written in the Book Life desires to conquer rather than be conquered, Alas, the hidden truth is that when we are conquered by His overwhelming love we gain a new name. And yes all will be conquered each in his own order, so great is His love.

“To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial, And a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.” Isaiah 56:5

BA, one day you like us, that have been conquered by the Almighty Love of God, will know the name which no carnal man can know nor imagine. So echoing Tom’s words, "conquer on until you fall as dead before He who conquers all. :smiley:

In Jesus’ name, the name above all names. “Jesus”, the name that stands as a strong tower that all will find it’s refuge. Oh, how I love that Name!

John

#28

BA,

Show me where it says that names are not added to the Book of Life. Tom already showed where it says names can be blotted out therefrom–which seems to do some harm to your theory that “God looked ahead” before the foundation of the world to see who would be saved.

Sonia

#29

Sonia.
I suggest you re-read the entire thread for you seem to be confused.Tom did not prove that names can be taken out. Rev 3.5 does not teach that names can be blotted, but the opposite. I dont consider giving scriptural support of God’s foreknowledge " looking ahead "a theory, Sonia. Anyways, your argument is against UR if names can be blotted out because if your name is not in the Lamb’s book of like your not getting in heaven…your getting a trip to the inescapable lake of fire.

#30

Come on, BA! :laughing:

We both agree God has foreknowledge, but you give that as* the way names get into the book of Life*! Where does it say that God’s foreknowledge is how the names get written there? CHAPTER AND VERSE! :wink:

Where does it say the Lake of Fire is “inescapable”? CHAPTER AND VERSE! :wink:

Sonia

#31

Sonia.

Read Romans 8:29. Read 1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

#32

When will we realize the Lake of Fire is God Himself that burns up all that carries death, including the Adamic nature of the indwelling old man. Read the words of J Preston Eby below and glean truth instead of spinning circles in falsity. Understand the symbols!

Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire. Hell, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire. And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hell, are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of death and hell and sin, for God shall destroy death in the lake of fire, He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin and rebellion in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hell! The time is coming, praise His name! when God’s Kingdom shall be All in All, and there shall be neither sin, nor sinners, nor death, nor hell. It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire - it is SIN and DEATH and HELL that are destroyed. “And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (I Cor. 15:26). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH!

#33

Careful Sonia. I’m telling ya he’s good. I mean, he told you go read some passages. See? That kind of argumentation is just too convincing. You’ll find yourself abandoning UR anytime.

Tom

#34

*How often I have seen the most zealous supporters of the [size=150]Hell, they built for their neighbor[/size], say in the next breath “when I get to Heaven.” Do we not know God Himself is both Heaven and Hell because “where He is, is Who He is”. His omnipresence is His very being. So when we dwell in Him and He in us, because He is everywhere, the effects are different depending on our natures. For one God is Hell and for the other God is Heaven. This is why I doubt those that espouse “the Hell, that man built” even know God other wise they would know He is Heaven and He is Hell and they dwell there now. Oh, how wondrous the hidden truths of God and who shall know them!

This is an except from a sermon by G. Cambell Morgan that might help some understand better the truth of “God as Fire and God as both Heaven and Hell.”*

Dwellers In Fire

The man who partakes of God’s character can live in God’s fire. You may well fear fire if you are a sinner. You may well fear the burnings if your hands are full of bribes and there is blood in your garments. You may well fear the fire if you are unholy, unrighteous, but not if you are right with God.

To use the magnificent and daring word of Peter, the man who himself partakes of “the Divine nature” can live in the fire of the Divine nature. Hell and heaven are one in atmosphere, and the atmosphere is a burning, blistering pain, or a shining, beauteous glory, according to what I am in myself.

Nothing can live in fire but that which is of the nature of fire. Nothing can live in fire but that which will take hold of the fire and be unweakened thereby. Who is it that can dwell in everlasting burnings and be unafraid? He that walketh righteously and speaketh uprightly. He can dwell in the fire.

This is the great rock upon which faith fastens in the midst of toil. I may be speaking to some tonight who are greatly overburdened in their toil for God. Perhaps there are some worshipping with us who have come from the country, and down there in your village or town it seems as though God was being beaten, it looks as though the Assyrian must triumph over Judah. It is not so.

God is in this age burning, burning, burning, and only that can remain which partakes of the fire nature, which answers the call of righteousness and becomes righteous. The mightiest foe cannot abide, God will burn it to destruction.

Assyria is very proud. She spoils, though none has spoiled her. She deals treacherously, though none has dealt treacherously with her. For a time evil has a glamour and apparent glory about it. Take heart, and be at rest, oh, warrior of the King! The one thing that evil cannot do is lock its door against God. He wraps it about in the flame of His own being, and there is no evil house in London, no evil man or movement that is not already in this all-embracing fire. I thank God that my heart knows it.
G. Cambell Morgan

Bleesings,
John

#35

Tom.
Here is the refute of Colossians 1:20.

1 Corinthians 1:20. This is another verse that URuse to prove a universal restoration or reconciliation of all things. This text does not teach, as UR assert, that all things will be reconciled; but rather that Christ has made pease TO reconcile all things. It is just like when Paul declared, that by the grace of God he had preached the unsearchable riches of Christ, “To make all men see” (Eph. 3:8,9). Yet all men do not and will not see, for some “men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil” (John 3:19).

Further, it would be a difficult task for UR to prove that all things means the whole human family. The phase, “all things” occurs four times in the verses preceding this text, in which they indicate that God created “all things.” Now universalists do not profess to believe that all animals, vegetables and minerals which God has created will be reconciled, and taken to heaven. It follows therefore that “all things” is either a mere generalization or limited in some way.

When universalists quote verses such as these they give little or no explanation as to what they mean. They simply assume “all things” means every person. The verse speaks of the order of all things coming in line with God, which would include the destruction, not conversion, of the wicked and enemies of God.

#36

Tom.
Here is the refute to Philipians 2:10-11.

Philippians 2:10-11. Paul predicts that one day, " That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:10-11). Here the UR insist, unbelievers are clearly in view in the phrase, “under the earth.”

No one denies that unbeliever will eventually confess Jesus is Lord, but that does not mean they will be saved. Even demons believe that Jesus is Lord, but they refuse to submit to Him (James 2:19). Believing that Jesus is Lord will not save anyone. Only belief in Christ (James 2:21-26) saves. “Those under the earth” (= the lost) in this text, make a confession from their mouth, but this acknowledgment will not be from the heart. For salvation, Paul insisted, one must both confess and “believe in your heart” (Romans 10:9).

#37

Notice the word [size=150]“all” [/size] in these verses.

"For of Him [that is, from or out from Him] and through Him and to Him are [size=150]all things[/size]." Rom 11:36

“For by Him were [size=150]all things[/size] created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created by Him and for Him.” Col 1:16

“And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile [size=150]all things[/size] unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth or things in heaven.” Col1:20

All is reconciled through Christ and His Cross … no exceptions … [size=150]ALL MEANS ALL [/size]

[size=150]NOTHING IS LOST … NOW AIN’T THAT THE COOLEST THING YOU EVER HEARD ![/size]

#38

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all means all … it’s just too simple isn’t it :mrgreen:

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#39

Tom read Genesis 1:27, read Genesis 9:6, 1 John 3:2, 1 Corinthians 11:7, Colossians 1:15, Colossians 3:10, 2 Corinthians 4:4, and John 10:34-36. :smiling_imp:

#40

One of Tom’s points earlier on in the thread reminded me of something that I haven’t seen brought up in these discussions yet.
One of those “bottom-line” things that “sewed it up” for me regarding UR, is that we know from the scriptural testimony that God will not allow sin and death to continue without end. Yet, this is precisely what the ECT position contrarily states will happen: that God will somehow utterly wipe sin and death from the universe while somehow also allowing it to remain in some dark corner of the universe called “hell”.

Utterly ridiculous.