The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Q&A with Derek Flood- author of "Healing the Gospel"

A few thoughts.

-In the book Boundaries with Kids, Christian authors Henry Cloud and John Townsend differentiate between “hurt” and “harm”. I think this is something of what Derek is getting at when he uses the term abuse. There is a difference between an appropriate spanking vs. wounding, bleeding and scarring. There is a difference between putting a child in time out for an appropriate length of time vs. locking them in the basement or closet for prolonged periods.

-Hebrews 12:11 “No discipline is pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it will produce a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who are healed by it”

-Philip Yancey has written a lot about this. One fabulous book he wrote with surgeon Paul Brand, and leprosy expert is entitled The Gift of Pain. With lepers, it is precisely their inability to feel pain that causes them harm. They step on a nail and don’t realize it. The foot becomes infected and must be amputated. The ability to feel pain can actually prevent further harm.

Cheers,

Caleb

Wow. This is, as Craig Revel Horwood is fond of saying, an *a-ma-zing *thread. :smiley:

Huge thanks to Derek, Dave, Jason, Melchie, Bob, Auggy, Ruth and everybody else who has contributed to a truly enlightening and fascinating discussion. So many things that have been said here have by turns spoken to my heart and challenged my beliefs.

At the moment I am still trying to process all that has been said here. And frankly I’m not sure I have the brain power to process all of it successfully. :smiley:

One - for me at least - radical concept is that of a God who is *not *sovereign, *not *all powerful. God’s power to achieve all that it is logically possible to achieve has always been a foundational doctrine for me, and one I find hard to let go of. I am not opposed to the concept that God deliberately limits His power - temporarily at least - in order to achieve His ultimate loving purposes. Although I think the Arminians take this self-limiting of God a step too far in saying that God allows His creatures to destroy themselves irrevocably.

But then again, along with Ivan Karamazov - and at least some participants here, I reckon :smiley: - I find any theodicy which does not actually ‘undo’ all evil, all pain, all suffering, which does not right every single wrong fully and completely and hence enable us to say with Julian of Norwich that ‘all manner of thing shall be well’ - unsatisfactory. For me, only UR can deliver that.

Personally I think the reasons why God ‘allows’ suffering may well be unknowable this side of the veil. Maybe even in the eschaton we may not fully understand. But we must be healed. The mother of that child thrown to the dogs must be healed, as must the child and the torturer. While I may not be able to understand why there is suffering in the world, I cannot believe that the God who flung the stars into the heavens and who reveals Himself as sacrificial love in Christ on the cross will not somehow bring all this healing about. If that involves some cataclysmic shift in the space-time continuum (or whatever, don’t know much about this sort of stuff :smiley: ), then so be it.

Melchie quoted Derek thus:

I say Amen to that, Derek. I finished your book this morning. It is a wonderful piece of work. Thank you so much.

Peace and love to all

Johnny

Jeremy,

We are both esoteric and odd in the way we articulate and express our vision and that is why it is often received with a perplexed silence, or dismissed as the musings of someone who doesn’t quite have both feet firmly planted on the ground. What is needed is not more verbiage either written or spoke, what is needed, desperately needed, is for the Living Word to do a new thing and make real the resurrection for everyone, believer and non believer alike.

Dave

Derek,

This would be God acting as Superman, intervening to foil specific acts of violence and cataclysmic events. That would be a piecemeal and grossly inequitable approach to “salvation.” To truly heal the world and make it whole it must come as a healing transforming event, an act of creation, that touches everyone and everything at once. Nothing less than that will do. The fact that we are even discussing Jesus at all is solely due to the unprecedented event of his resurrection which is the overturning of the most fundamental natural process of all: death.

Resurrection does not come to the world by incremental evolutionary processes or by a gradual conversion/enlightenment of individual human beings over many centuries. It is an act of creation that is solely the prerogative of the creator and it will come in a moment of time, the last moment, to all of creation and bring the life of God to and across the full expanse of all time and space–the equitableness of God fulfilled.

I really appreciate the vision of God being with us in complete solidarity with us in our suffering through the darkness of this world. A deep meditation of Golgotha is what kept me from killing myself on more than one occasion. But only recently have I begun to see the other side of the Christ event–the resurrection, in a new light that is changing my outlook and experience of life. But as enlivening as that is to me it is not the hope fulfilled for a world in desperate need for true healing and liberation. My experience is not a hope, there is no longer a need for hope once the thing hoped for is experienced. For the relatively few individuals that have had that first fruit experience there are countless many of others that are born into misery, suffer, and then die never having experienced it. My hope is for them, that the God who subjected himself to violent death on the cross at the hands of the death-dealing powers of this world is the real God who will bring real, meaningful, abundant life to all those who have only known a life of suffering and victimization at the hands of the powers of this world. Only universal resurrection can do that.

Dave

I thought it might be helpful to include here some of the Q&A session from the book’s press kit in order to further our conversation here:

***1. Healing the Gospel is focused on understanding the meaning of the cross. Why should the average Christian reader be interested in a book on the atonement?


Most of us were taught that Jesus needed to die to appease a wrathful God’s demand for punishment. This brings up a number of difficult questions: Does that mean Jesus died to save us from God? How could someone ever truly love or entrust themselves to a God like that? How can that ever be called “Good News”? It’s questions like these that have made so many people want to have nothing to do with Christianity.

These are deeply relevant questions for us to face that have a profound impact on our relationship with God and others. Countless people filling our pews have adopted a hurtful view of God and themselves which has led them to internalize feelings of shame and self-loathing. Others have lost their faith entirely, unable to worship a God who seems to them to be a moral monster. Faith motivated by fear, threat, and feelings of worthlessness. How could things have gone so wrong? When did the good news become bad news?

Healing the Gospel is about breaking away from that hurtful image of God and instead learning to understand the cross in the context of grace, restoration, and enemy love.

***2. Many people would say that the idea that Jesus died to appease God’s demand for punishment is simply what the Bible teaches. How would you respond to that?


First, I would want to stress that this has not always been how Christians understood the atonement. For the first thousand years, the work of Christ was understood primarily in terms of God’s act of healing people, and liberating them from the bonds of sin and death. This understanding is known as Christus Victor. But gradually there was a shift towards a legal focus, and with it a focus on violent punishment. With this shift the message was flipped on it’s head: instead of the crucifixion being seen as an act of grave injustice (as it is portrayed in all four Gospels), it was now claimed that God had demanded the death of Jesus to quench his anger. Not coincidentally, this coincided with increased violence perpetrated by the church, and it went downhill from there.

As a society we’ve increasingly come to recognize the damage punishment can do―not just in the realm of religious violence like the Crusades, but spanning a wide scope of issues ranging from how we raise our kids to international conflict. Across the board we have come to see that restorative justice works and punitive justice doesn’t. It’s about making things right, rather than perpetuating hurt.

At the same time, it has been deeply ingrained into our thinking that God demands retributive justice. For many Christian this is inseparable from how they understand salvation. Consequently, in an effort to be true to the teachings of the Bible, many Christians struggle to believe it, even though it seems immoral and hurtful to them. They hate it, but think this is what God wants them to believe.

Healing the Gospel takes a deep look at the Bible and makes the case that this view is neither representative of Jesus and his teachings, nor is it reflective of the New Testament. Rather, it is the result of people projecting their worldly understanding of punitive justice onto the biblical text. Jesus was focused on confronting those cultural and religious assumptions. What we see in the New Testament is the gospel understood as God’s act of restorative justice. This is the master narrative of the New Testament, and entails a critique of the way of retribution and violence rather than a validation of it.

***3. But doesn’t that entail being soft on crime, and not taking sin seriously? How can God be just if there are no consequences?


There most certainly are consequences. The choice is not between action and inaction, it is between allowing hurt to be perpetuated or acting to repair the harm. The Greek word for “saved” used throughout the Gospels is sozo, and it means both “saved” and “healed.” This is deeply significant because it reflects the fact that salvation is not conceptualized by Jesus in a legal framework, but in terms of healing and restoration. We see in Jesus that God’s response to sin is not to punish it, but to heal it. In other words, the guiding metaphor here is not sin as crime in need of punishment, but sin as sickness in need of healing. It’s a model of restoration not retribution.

This entails a much deeper understanding of sin because it recognizes its deep roots, and offers a real solution that involves changing a person’s heart, whereas a legal focus stays on a superficial level of outward behavior, and only perpetuates hurt through punishment.

In short, love heals. The real problem I think is that people don’t trust in love and so they revert to punishment and fear. But that is not the gospel. Real justice is not about punishment, it is about making things right. Likewise, biblical mercy is not about looking the other way, it is precisely about seeing. Compassion means that we do see the real problems and hurt around us, and therefore act in compassion to help. Justice is not in conflict with compassion, on the contrary real justice only comes through acts of compassion.

4. What about the the many passages that seem to support Christ being punished instead of us? For example Jesus is described as our sacrifice, and the book of Hebrews says that “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” (Heb 9:22)

This is an important question, and Healing the Gospel spends a considerable amount of time carefully looking at key passages like this one in order to articulate an understanding of the cross that is at the same time both life-giving and grace-centered as well as thoroughly biblical.

In this particular example, it’s important to note that you have only quoted half of the verse. Context matters. The full verse reads: “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” So the stated purpose of the sacrificial blood is not to appease, but to cleanse, to purify, to make holy. We see this theme of sacrifice understood as cleansing repeated throughout Hebrews. It tells us the sacrifices were a symbol of the reality in Christ, and the focus is on how Christ acts to make us pure, cleansed and holy.

We see this in Paul too: A central focus of Paul’s throughout his epistles was on how we are to follow in the way of the cross, which is the way of enemy love. If we instead see the cross as focused on appeasing God’s anger then it ends up standing for the opposite: As if to say we should not act in retribution, but God apparently does.

Here’s a really simple rule of thumb: If our understanding of the cross completely contradicts everything Jesus taught and demonstrated in his own life, then we are probably missing the point. The things we see Jesus doing in the Gospels are there as a context for us to get what his cross was all about. Paul understood this, and said that we need to follow in that same way of the cross. This is the way of enemy love which God demonstrated in Jesus, and which we are to follow.

There is therefore no contradiction between how God treats his enemies, and how we are called by Jesus to treat ours. Show me someone who has forgiven a great wrong done to them―or even more, show me someone who has forgiven a great wrong done to someone they love dearly―and I’ll show you someone who understands the cross better than all the theologians in the world. We fail to understand the cross because we have not plumbed the depths of what great love can bear. Really getting the cross doesn’t come through study, it comes through discipleship. The more we grow to be like Jesus, to see people through his eyes, to love as he does, the more we understand his cross.

I’ll have to catch up on the thread later, as I’m busy with ‘work’ work for the rest of the day. (I read down through most of the recent comments earlier this morning but had to make some choices about where I would use time to reply, and I see more comments including some important ones by Derek since then.)

But I’d like to see some comments from Derek, if possible (this may have already been done and I don’t recall–sorry if so), regarding the Essary Brothers’ The Hour We Least Expected (the link goes to a currently ongoing discussion thread here at the forum), since their thesis would seem to match up well with Derek’s thesis.

Of if it doesn’t, I’d be interested in hearing why not from you Derek. But if it does, you could be of help to them in polishing and refining their position: which is that the Passion events completely fulfill all biblical prophecies (even extensive ones like RevJohn) with none remaining to be fulfilled (aside from everyone going to heaven or otherwise being with God after we die, of course–I’m a little fuzzy from reports yet whether they hold to any bodily resurrection other than Jesus’, and I’m a even a tad fuzzy on whether they hold to that!)

I know one big difference would be that (so far as I, and other people who have actually read their book, can tell) they still hold to some variety of punitive penal sub atonement theory, and I’m pretty sure you don’t, Derek. But otherwise (and that might be one thing you could help them with, or so I would think not being a penal sub proponent per se myself :wink: ) their thesis seems to thematically overlap yours in important ways.

I’m being rather critical of them, so sending people more sympathetic to their position in their direction seems to me like a nice thing to do. :smiley: Especially since you’ve got significantly more experience than they do.

At the risk of sounding flippantly brief, I’m pretty sure those of us who think Jesus actually meant God punishes at least some sinners (including warnings of future punishment to come) with-or-as-Jesus Himself, when Jesus taught about those things, are not contradicting everything Jesus taught as well as demonstrated in His own life.

And I would go on to observe that if any NT author who seemed to be prophetically warning (sometimes via OT references) of coming punishment from Jesus/YHWH, actually was prophetically warning about that (instead of I’m-not-really-sure-what, or being mistaken about it because they had an OT mindset or whatever); then those of us who think there will be punishment still coming from Jesus/YHWH to at least some sinners are not contradicting everything Jesus demonstrates in His own life either.

Moreover, if the OT is to any degree accurate in its many, many, many descriptions about what YHWH (and/or the Angel of the Presence) has done or will do regarding punishment of sinners, and if Jesus (as NT authors, plus Himself by report, routinely indicate they believed) is to be identified as YHWH (and/or the Angel of the Presence) in some way (whether via some variety of trinitarian theism, or binitarianism, or high unitarianism, or modalism, or polytheism, or cosmological multi-theism, or as pretty much any even slightly conservative Christianity has historically promoted); then those of us who think there was and will be punishment coming from Jesus/YHWH to at least some sinners are not contradicting everything Jesus taught and demonstrated in His own life.

In fact I’d say we’re keeping more of what Jesus taught and demonstrated in His own life, than those who disassociate God and/or Christ (and/or the Holy Spirit) from doing any punishment.

Derek,
I agree that we all “observe that God does not prevent” all evil & suffering. But I actually see Calvinist and Arminian orthodoxy agrees that God has sovereign ability to stop it (in #1, his purpose “causes” it; in 2, he “allows” it to achieve important purposes, inc. ‘freedom’). You’d said, suffering has “no positive purpose,” and “God can’t stop it!” You now admirably say, “I don’t know if God can” (and just won’t?).

But without a worthy purpose, wouldn’t both options still contradict Jesus’ hope, teaching & values (that we all value)?
A. If God can stop it, allowing it with no good purpose would seem deeply immoral!
B. If God truly can’t, then even the cross’ display of God’s loving grace can assure no good outcome. It may well be unable to overcome our folly!

My bias: If a ‘Devil’ is the ultimate explanation for our situation, we are stuck in a hopeless dualism. Only an omnipotent God who permits evil, to work out a redemptive purpose, makes sense of hope amid cited texts where suffering achieves God’s goals, and is describable as a refining ‘fire’ sent by God. What doesn’t make sense here?

P.S. Jason, we’ve argued for differing assumptions about God’s nature & ontology, but it’s nice that my perception is that we are arguing for similar conclusions here.

This is a great discussion and it seems to have been carried along on several different threads on this board but the same underlying concepts are generating the debate.

I have greatly enjoyed primarily davef, and ruthj for stating their positions quite clearly in my estimation, and what they have said very much resonates with my own sentiments. It’s been a long and winding road for me coming from a background where God’s so called sovereignty, wrath, and punishment were explored every Sunday morning. For me it led to darkness and a feeling of hopelessness, and in the depths I finally asked for God to show me what it all meant. I don’t claim any sudden revelation from God or any such thing but quietly over the years the following concepts have sort of settled in my heart and calmed the darkness that once seemed impenetrable.

So, this is my current understanding of things as they relate to this thread although I am really at a loss as to how to present it clearly so please bear with me.

To me this says God knows everything about us now and we currently don’t know much about anything. One day we will (suddenly?) know everything about God in the same way he knows everything about us now.

It is somehow a property of equality. If A knows all, and someday B will know everything A knows, then B too will know all.

In essence I think Paul is saying that one day, we, every human that has ever lived, will become “all knowing” just as God is. I realize this is blasphemous and heretical and all that but please don’t let it stop you from really thinking about what Paul is communicating here. It is quite profound. Paul also posed this much related question in 1 Cor 2: “who can know the thoughts of a man except the man himself?” Then in the same letter in chapter 13 he presents the “looking in the mirror concept”. Who do you see every time you look in the mirror? I can’t see this as anything but Paul saying, one day the mirror will be wiped clean and God will be staring himself in the face – as depicted in Psalms 17.

To me this implies the following:

God chose to lose himself so he could be found. He is both the seeker and the one being sought.
God chose to forget so he could remember. He is both the all-knowing and the one in the dark.
God chose to become the prodigal so he could be the welcoming father. He is both the father and the son made whole.
God chose to become ill so he could be healed. He is both the sick and the healer.
God chose to become oppressed so he could be set free. He is both the prisoner and the liberator.
God chose to die so he could be reborn. He is both the dying and the giver of life.

So does this imply that God is also the oppressor, the killer, etc.? Evil as I see it, is our ability granted through the vehicle of freedom to act in the “not God” role, to become the opposing force to what is real and true. Jesus’ death reconciled ALL things including these opposition roles acted out by you and I because of our dim eyesight (as in Cor 13). We have all been, and still very much are, in opposition roles no matter how much we currently believe we are working for good, and our expectations of corrective punishment for the other guys must also then apply to us. Except that, because of Jesus, we will wake up one day free from the burden of guilt, to experience in fullness, God as both the seeker finding, and the lost one being found. Please think about this carefully.

Will God punish sinners? Must he to establish justice or cause correction? I think a better question might be: “Is God allowing himself to suffer and for what purpose?”

In the end, as at the beginning, God is all in all. In the end, he alone will have been the “experiencer” of it all.

Hi Caleb

I think some parents have forgotten the real effects of “harmless” “appropriate” “spanking”.

What a lot of people here seem unaware of is that it can have the effect of wounding and scarring the child for life, and making it more difficult to love the parent who does it to them. It can take a monumental act of forgiveness to get past that. Additionally, it has been conclusively demonstrated that emotional pain causes physical pain too. So please do not trivialise it.

I don’t know where the Hebrews writer got this from, but he didn’t get it from the Word of God: Jesus never ever said anything like this. He always took pain away - not just damage, but pain.

This is true: in our present reality, harm is possible, therefore we need a warning system to prevent harm. When we feel pain, that tells us there is damage. So if a parent has inflicted pain on their child, they have damaged them, and that is something Jesus (the Word of God, the exact image of God) **never **did, and therefore something that God doesn’t do.

Jason,
Thanks for the feedback. Let me begin by acknowledging the point you make:

I do not want to imply that you do not read Scripture with seriousness and intelligence, nor do I want to imply that you read it with integrity. I can see how you get to where you are at.

I imagine that you could say the same of people who are not universalists like yourself: you can see how they read their Bible’s with seriousness and integrity… and yet you disagree with them.

So I also–with respect and without any animosity–disagree with you on this point. I stress that there are many other vital points that we agree on, and I rejoice for all of those! We probably have more in common that we we do in disagreement. I don’t want that to fall out of sight. Especially on online forums where we can’t see into each others eyes that can so easily get lost. So I want to say that I consider you an ally and a brother.

Secondly, I note that I said “if” we did this. So to the extent that the shoe does not fit, you should not wear it.

Third, (and this gets into some nitty-gritty but important detail of exegesis) perhaps it would be better if instead of saying “everything Jesus said” I instead said “the central point of Jesus’ teaching.” Let me elaborate here:

There is a tendency to focus on single words and phrases when doing exegesis. We see this in Bible commentaries a lot. There is value in doing this, but there is also a real danger of having this “word study” method lead to completely missing the point. This is a huge blind spot of many biblical scholars. I would in contrast advocate a narrative reading. That is, we need to look at the big picture of where the text has been, and where it is going in order not to miss the forest for the trees. What we see in the NT many many times, and especially with the teaching of Jesus, is that he begins with the religious assumptions of his audience, and then pushes those assumptions. Always the the direction he pushes them is towards mercy and radical forgiveness.

Take for example the passage is Matthew where Jesus tells the parable of the ungrateful servant. There we have a picture of a king, presumably standing for God, who comes down hard with retribution on the ungrateful servant. So there we have it: God will be violent and “torture” bad guys.

But hold on. If we back up and look at the context we see something very different: Peter has asked Jesus how many times he should forgive. Jesus tells him not 7 but 77 times. Here Jesus is subverting an OT passage where Lamech says that he will not just take vengrance and kill 7 for every one, but kill 77 people for every one. So Jesus turns that ethic of escalation of retribution into a radical “escalation of forgiveness”.

He then tells the parable of the ungrateful servant to illustrate this. That is our context for the parable: radical forgiveness.
The point of the parable is that because God has been merciful to us in a big way, it would be really suck if we then were not merciful to others with little things. It is parallel to Jesus saying elsewhere to be “merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.”

Now if Peter then turned to Jesus and said “Okay, so let me see if I got this right Jesus. I need to forgive 77 times, but God only forgives once, and then after that will come with massive vengeance, right?” I think we would see Jesus shake his head in frustration and say (as he often does) “O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I stay with you and put up with you?”

Because that interpretation would completely undermine everything Jesus was just saying. No, the point is not that we should be loving but God wont and will “torture” us. “No, no, no” says Jesus “Have I been with you so long and you still don’t get it? If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father loves his enemies, so should you Peter! AAAAARRRGGGHHH! I think I’m getting a migraine.”

What I am saying is that the big picture message that Jesus is saying, over and over is:

*Forgive, forgive, and then forgive again. Love your enemies. Act to sew seeds of restoration not retribution, overcome evil with good… Do this because this is what God is like. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Love mercy. *

The NT is one big move *away *from the OT way of retribution and violence, and us vs. them thinking (all done in the name of God), and towards the way of restorative justice and enemy love. That is the master narrative of Jesus and the NT. It is a major shift from the way of the OT, and so we see them beginning where their audience is, with the assumptions of retribution and dominance and violence, and then continually pushing them away from that. We need to get that progression or we miss the whole point. We need to get that big picture, and not stumble over the little verses, so that we end up missing that master narrative. Grace, grace, grace. Retribution sucks. Redemption rules. Jesus is the messiah. Not the warrior-king you all expected, but the crucified prince of peace.

Bob,

I would say that the most important answer we can give to suffering is this:

  1. We should never excuse suffering and misery. That is not what Jesus wants. Jesus wants us to join his in ending suffering. So if our apologetic explanation does that, we are missing the point.
  2. We may, in entering into solidarity with those who are oppressed, make ourselves vulnerable to suffering. Jesus did this. But this does not mean that suffering is good. Loving is good. Our goal is not to suffer, but to radically love and stand with those who are hurting.
  3. We need to find a way to trust in love in this broken world of ours. That’s really hard, especially when we really open our eyes and love. Whatever lets you do that, hold on to that for dear life.

If you can do all 3 of those. Rock on.

David (and Dave!); Although I know I’ve made (and will likely continue to make) statements that seem to oppose what you’re saying here, I have to confess that I share your sentiments in the deepest parts of my being. What I continue to wrestle with is the difficulties presented by the texts of scripture which seem in places to oppose where our hearts want to go.
But maybe in the end, that’s the real test; searching the scriptures thinking that in them we have life, vs. simply paying attention to the Christ now dwelling within us, revealing himself and the Father.

I am a convinced universalist, and a hopeful ultra-u.

David,

Really good post you have contributed here. Very thought provoking, you have an interesting way of looking at it.

That is really a great way to approach the oft asked, “Why does God allow suffering.” You turn it on its head and ask “Why does God allow himself to suffer?” Now, if a person has a theistic concept of God that would be a nonsensical, even blasphemous question. After all, the theistic god is impassable (cannot suffer) and all the other “omni” attributions ascribed to such a god would make that an illegitimate question. And yet Jesus as the Crucified God reveals that very thing that your question raises: That God has allowed himself to suffer the pain of all those who suffer as victims of the almighty power of death. He obviously doesn’t do it to chastise or correct himself, does he? So why does he allow himself to suffer?
Perhaps to take the suffering of others from them.

So he will have been the experiencer of all the experiences of the multitude of the inhabitants of the creation. Both the good and bad of it. In the end he takes the bad experiences from those multitudes and keeps them hidden in himself (YHWH and the Lamb) from them and only leaves them with the good and gives his all bountiful life to provide them with an unending cornucopia of good experiences without the taint of sin and death to mar it in the slightest.

Yes, well said indeed! It is equitable, the *dikaiosune *of God revealed and made available to all.

I hope to see more contributions from you David, they are sorely needed.

Dave

Mel,

I am an hopeful ultra-u too. After all, universalists of all types can only hope that it is true and will come to pass, because what we experience in the here and now certainly doesn’t resemble much what we hope and imagine the new creation of God will be.

I think, unlike the rabid Calvinistic notion that we are totally depraved and therefore must not trust the “sentiments in the deepest parts of our being” that those sentiments are the residual image of God speaking to us. It is that part of us that is still like a little child who trust’s that God is good implicitly, until it is beaten out of them by religious indoctrination and the harsh cruel reality of living in this world. Unless we are born anew and become like a little child we cannot perceive the new creation of God and participate in it. That is what resurrection is for, it allows us to start over with a new birth and joyfully enter into the new creation of God as a child and then we’ll see and experience it without the slightest doubt that God is indeed very, very good.

Thanks for sharing your sentiments Mel.

Dave

:slight_smile:
For some reason, your post reminded me of the quote (I forget where I saw it at the moment) that said: “The gospel is so simple that it takes a theologian to make it confusing.” :laughing:

Ain’t that the truth. Something truly astonishing and wonderful is about to happen to the whole world that will make the gospel simple again–I feel it in my bones.
:slight_smile:

Derek,

On suffering, I love your 3 goals! I too am deeply troubled by suffering, by notions that God ‘tortures’ to achieve his ends, indeed, by P.S. My Theo/Biblical objection is the assumed solution that I’m sensing from many that avoiding atheism requires rejecting a God who has some sort of sure ‘power’ (e.g. as spelled out by Dave). I respect any who honestly clarify that for them salvaging God’s character requires a finite God who tries. But I fear this is a steep price to pay.

You said, we need a “trust” that can “make ourself vulnerable to suffering!” I agree that’s exactly the Bible’s calling for us. But believing that God may lack the ability to redemptively bring victory in it, would lead me to fear that that way of life may well end up being a loser. So for me, such a Jesus-like way of life calls for having a universalist confidence that God has the ability to see that love will win. Thus, we each solve mysterious tensions different ways. But I find that the Bible encourages that very hope that would bolster us in living just as you have encouraged.

Hey Ruth! Thanks for responding to my post.

Are you saying that pain can never be redemptive? I think about no pain, no gain, in terms of physical exercise. The steep hill I climbed on my mountain bike last week was not fun at all. It was painful, and I had to stop a number of times. However, I know it is causing my lungs to get stronger and my legs as well. I think this is a pattern we see in creation both spiritual and physical. Jesus calls us to die to ourselves. Take up your cross and follow me. Self-denial is painful, and yet Jesus invites us into that. Jesus said things that were painful as well (though always out of love). When he told Peter, “get behind me Satan”, I’m sure that hurt. When he asked Peter three times if he loved him at the end of John, that was painful for Peter. When Jesus told the Rich young ruler to sell everything, the rich young ruler went away sad. I’m reminded of a song entitled “Gentle Wounds” by Over the Rhine that I believe speaks to this concept. And of course Jesus said very painful, hurtful remarks to the Pharisees in his seven Woes to the Pharisees. I believe the intention is like a faceful of cold water that says “Wake up”, though it is done in love. So I stand by the hurt vs. harm, and the Hebrews quote, as I see it is reflective of the person of Jesus described in the gospels.

Peace,

Jeremy

Bob,

To be clear, I don’t believe that God lacks the ability to redemptively bring victory. I’m counting in it in fact.

I don’t think it calls for it necessarily. It would honestly be good to live that way even if there was no God at all (let alone a heaven) because it is good for people. That alone is enough reason: we do it because it is right and loving. I think you can be an atheist and be convinced that the way of Jesus is right. many do in fact. I am not an atheist. Just saying.

The reason I want/need it to be true that love wins is because of my love and compassion for those who have been victimized. I want to see them made whole. I want to see it for all those who suffer injustice. So I don’t need it to motivate my own behavior, but I do need it because I care for others and long for (restorative) justice.