The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Question for those who don't believe in Christ's preincarnation

How do you explain Joshua 5:13-15? If this figure isn’t Jesus, who do you think it is?

Matt 1:21.
And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Jesus wasn’t named Jesus until after his birth, so how could it be Jesus ? how could Jesus pre - exist himself ?

I think he was called different names at different times possibly reflecting his ministry so i think Jesus means “salvation” and that was the main purpose of him becoming one of us but after the resurrection he is called “Christ” & John said he was “the Word” and he was with God in the beginning & i think he was “The Angel of the Lord” in the OT & was with Moses at the burning bush & with Abraham. Also i think in Revelation he is given another name.

Yes John does say the word was in the begging with God. He doesn’t say the son was in the beginning with God. I m o there is a big difference.

Jesus makes no reference to himself speaking or being present at the burning bush account.

Mark 12:26
But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

Remember this? I think it clarifies some things concerning this thread. YMMV

So who do you think was the commander of Yahweh’s army mentioned in Joshua 5?

Didn’t John say the Word became flesh and dwelt among us? Becoming flesh means the Word who was with God became a human being and lived with us.

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Specifically, it does NOT say 'Who" - it says ‘which’. I think it means that God’s word - not Word, big W - which is His intent, His plan, His goals - were made real in his son Jesus.
But like I’ve said, I don’t think it is a matter that should divide Christians.

In the immediate text, it doesn’t revel who the captain/commander of the Lords army is, so I’m happy to leave it there.

So am I. The Jews were and are strict monotheist, though way in their past they were henotheist. But in no way could they even conceive of three Persons in Yahweh.

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For me personally. The word/logos in the beginning with God, was nothing less nothing more than Gods plan of creation with in his thoughts [ie] God spoke his thoughts/plan into existence :— “God said” let there be etc …

λόγος lógos, log’-os; from G3004; something said (including the thought) ; by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression :—-Logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason ,” or “ plan ”) plural logo I, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.

The world as we know it, didn’t exist until
God spoke his word [ie] His thoughts and plan into existence, on that same principle, I don’t believe Gods son/Christ existed until the plan was brought forth in Mary’s womb [ie] Something doesn’t have to pre-exist before it comes into being.

I’m not sure about that, at least as traditionally understood. In addition to saying God was the word, the Bible also says God is love. But no Christian thinks there’s a ‘Person’ of God distinct from the Father who is love. The word could be an attribute of the Father, just as love is.

I wonder if it was a descendant of Melchizedeck. :question:

Maybe i’m missing something in these responses but I don’t think an attribute of God in any other venue became flesh and dwelt among us. This is from John who to a large extent wrote his gospel to portray Jesus as a divine being so describing him as an aspect of God would fit in with his purpose.

Jesus very well may have been Melchizedeck as well as the Army Commander in Joshua. If you read the paragraph on Mel in Hebrews I don’t know who else it could have been.

I can’t think of any off the top of my head. But I don’t think John saying the Word became flesh necessarily means the Word was a “Person”. Consider how Proverbs describes Wisdom:

Proverbs 1
20 Wisdom calls aloud in the street.
She utters her voice in the public squares.
21 She calls at the head of noisy places.
At the entrance of the city gates, she utters her words:

Sounds like it’s talking about a person, right? Yet it’s obvious that this is metaphorical.

Good post & good point! I do have to mention that even though it seems metaphorical & says “she” many people take “wisdom” as Jesus. There are reasons. Also again re John he had a purpose in his gospel, it was about Jesus & so I think that is important when figuring out what John had in mind.

You seem to be inquisitive about various bible topics so here is one you might like. Can God learn? I think in this section it says “wisdom came forth” so where was it before it came forth? Did God access it? Does God learn?

If I had to hazard a guess [and that’s all it would be] I would be more inclined to link it with someone like that of Michael the arc angel. The bible does portray Michael as a chief prince an angle who can prepare for war, also an angle who stands guard over Gods people. But as I said I am happy to leave it were it is.

For me, Hebrews does indeed draw on Melchizedeck as a type of Christ. But it specifically says Christ is in the order of Melchizedeck as high priest. Not was Melchizedeck. [my reply isn’t suggesting you said Melchizedeck was the pre - incarnate son]

Here is one you also may or may
not like. Don’t you think it strange, that immediately after Jesus baptism/anointing where God declares “This is My Beloved son” he/ Christ is led into the wilderness and tempted by Satan. Why did satan repeatedly say [IF] you are the son of God do this etc … satan doesn’t address him as Jesus or the the christ, he addresses him as the the son who many believe pre - existed his birth as (a) God or The God, and was used in Gods creation of [all] things. This creation would have included satan himself being created through the son meaning satan would have already known he/christ was the son of God, and Jesus would have already known he was the son of God, so there would have been no [IF] about it. [ie] no real temptation to prove himself as Gods son.