The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Reconciling OT violence with NT Love

Indeed and if the canon is sooooooooooo perfectly clear like many love to point out, then well… Gosh, explain all these denominations? Damage Control: “Oh, the stuff they bicker about isn’t major points” or “All the others are wrong, but the one I just happen to be in, is the correct one”

And if it isn’t perfectly clear… Then why must you believe your “Canon” is completely innerant? To what benefit of this if you still can interpret it multiple ways? Has Canon solve the Atonement Theories? Has Canon brought us all together?

If only people believed in the Koran… I might, imagine how unified and better things would be (joking, of course, but ultimately the same line of thinking).

You don’t need a book to tell you what is right. You already have this within you. Personally, I think people are scared to think for themselves, for they feel “safe” believing in canon and something of that like that is complete and without error. I mean, I agree, it is a scary thing to start thinking for yourself and judging on matters with your own mind. It took me a while to become my default mode and religion isn’t the ONLY groups that do this… Social Media, Social Justice Warriors - They don’t think either. They merely repeat what they hear without regard for thought. Only a few people actually break the mold and say “What do I think?” instead of “What do other say?” - Not to be arrogant, we can indeed learn from others and we ought to consider their points. But ultimately, the decision is up to us.

McDonald said it best in his sermon “The Higher Faith”

The aspiring child is often checked by the dull disciple who has learned his lessons so imperfectly that he has never got beyond his school-books. Full of fragmentary rules, he has perceived the principle of none of them. The child draws near to him with some outburst of unusual feeling, some scintillation of a lively hope, some wide-reaching imagination that draws into the circle of religious theory the world of nature, and the yet wider world of humanity, for to the child the doings of the Father fill the spaces; he has not yet learned to divide between God and nature, between Providence and grace, between love and benevolence;–the child comes, I say, with his heart full, and the answer he receives from the dull disciple is–“God has said nothing about that in his word, therefore we have no right to believe anything about it. It is better not to speculate on such matters. However desirable it may seem to us, we have nothing to do with it. It is not revealed.” For such a man is incapable of suspecting, that what has remained hidden from him may have been revealed to the babe. With the authority, therefore, of years and ignorance, he forbids the child, for he believes in no revelation but the Bible, and in the word of that alone. For him all revelation has ceased with and been buried in the Bible, to be with difficulty exhumed, and, with much questioning of the decayed form, re-united into a rigid skeleton of metaphysical and legal contrivance for letting the love of God have its way unchecked by the other perfections of his being.

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You need to be a preacher. An agnostic preacher. Good stuff. :+1:

So out of curiosity Gabe… can you then specify which god/God you do believe in — if indeed you do at all?

Yep, more agnostic types see inerrantists glaring gamesmanship in explaining away passages that conflict with their own systems and sentiments. I’ve even seen them deny that the OT has a “positive” disposition toward efforts to slaughter infants and whole races of people.

Davo, this question seems disingenuous for two reasons:

  1. I have, on multiple occasions, made known my views on this matter and I know you have read them.
  2. This seems like a combative attempt to “give me enough rope to hang myself”.

Never the less, for the sake of anyone curious, I shall share again, my current believes.

  1. I have not received any special revelation from God. I, therefore, do not claim to know who this God is, what his name might be, or if he even exists.

  2. It seems likely to me that there is a creator. The natural order of things, the complexity of life. However, I am not confident that we are important to such a God. If we are, it would have nothing to do with me and everything to do with Him.

  3. I believe that while we think we are something special in the universe, that we may be no more than an animal that is here today, gone tomorrow.

  4. As we learn more about the universe, I am often thinking that we are such a tiny part to a much larger part. The Galaxy may just be one small cell of a cosmic being or creature, and we are not even a bacteria.

  5. I would be thrilled to get a direct call from God.

  6. Morality can easily be ascertained by the impact it has on us and others. This is not to say that all decisions of the moral mature are easy, bit most of them are. The Golden rule existed before Christ, at least the one I’m the Bible, said it.

  7. I suspect that Quakers and George Fox’s views are pretty close to what I believe. That if there is a God, I think it is his spirit that is acting in us anonymously.

When I die, I will know, or I will die not knowing and never know it. Either way, I am at relative peace regarding the matter and I don’t fear being wrong for the same reason you don’t fear that Hades or Hel, Loki or Allah will torture you if you don’t believe in them.

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I go for option 1, that whatever God does is good. However, the statement, “…if someone now were to tell you that they are called by God to carry out a massacre, you’d not have any grounds to discourage them” does not follow. It is a hypothetical statement, and doesn’t apply to God, for He does not command evil.EVERTHING that God commands is good, and thus any statement that He commanded something that is NOT good, is false.

Thanks Gabe… I appreciate your honest and clear answer. My query wasn’t meant to come across as egregious. You had expressed what seemed a rather vocally strong rejection of a given type of god/God and given this I thought simply to ask for further clarification.

We do share one thing… not fearing being wrong. Don’t get me wrong I do like to be right, but I’ve been wrong on so much theological stuff in my life and yet came to realise one day I was never ever any less cared about by God regardless wherever my beliefs were at — at least that was a perception I came to which I found quite liberating. And yep I can argue the point as vociferously as anyone else, but that’s because I like to be convinced if I’m going to adopt something new.

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The question cannot be answered fairly under the strict options you set forth is all I’m saying. But I will go with all that God does is good. But when claims are made that God did something that appears evil, there is a good basis upon which to question the claims of attribution to God.
So how can we know what God did in the Old Testament and what men used the lying pen of the scribes to attribute to God? The character and teachings of Christ seem like what I hear more people are saying should be the rule of interpretation these days. Not a bad argument. But we may have to be willing to sacrifice biblical inerrancy on the alter of spiritual authenticity. Not a horrible option at all if it brings us closer to God’s true heart.

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I didn’t mean to suggest you were ignorant of that approach to the sacrifice of Isaac, simply that I hear your statement often used as an objection and I wonder why the symbolism is rejected when:

  1. it parallels with the salvation plan of God in obvious manifold ways
  2. God later stated elsewhere quite clearly He would never ask anyone to sacrifice their child as an offering.
  3. God stopped Abraham with an angels hand just to be absolutely sure that knife did not fall and clearly stated to Abraham that He had passed a test of obedience and faith.
  4. Paul validated this particular story as a good thing not an example of a monster god. Heb 11:17-19

There is a solid case to be made that the monster god is a human invention in the OT writings, but the story of Isaac being offered really doesn’t seem to deserve that treatment when you listen to what has been learned and taught from it. No one is resorting to allegory as a crutch as much as seeing the revelation of types and shadows that Paul himself referred to. Heb 10:1

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Just an FYI here - I am not upset, ornery, or annoyed with anyone or their responses. I am a very matter of fact (or lack thereof) in my discussions. Just wanted to make sure people are aware. In other words, I am not offended by your viewpoints or because you disagree with mine. That goes for everyone here, and most people in general. I think the only topic I may become emotional on is abortion.

Its very hard to know how we are “sounding” sometimes. I often struggle to know when I am creating a negative tone. Though someone usually lets me know lol. Anyway thanks for the clarification.

Here is a great paper by Randall Rauser.
“Let Nothing that Breathes Remain Alive”
On the Problem of Divinely Commanded Genocide

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I tend to resonate with Rauser.