Really? I thought he was all fired up to tell us that!
I never said any such thing. Yes, I did think it, to an extent at least, but I never said it. I’m just sayin’, you probly need to read a little better yourself.
Just quoting a scripture doesn’t necessarily express authenticity. I take it he was looking for a very personally generated remark (though history has shown that the Spirit inspires you to just quote others instead). I felt that, yes, your initial statement was very telling. At the very least, it can’t be a true statement, since even scripture tells us that our salvation is based on his atonement alone. We must accept it, yes, but this is less like a willful handshake (the mind of man cannot submit to God) and more like a siege of love by the Holy Spirit on someone too weary to continue to resist God or hold onto their hatred for Him. In other words, none of the credit can go to us, it’s all God, from beginning straight to the end.
Jesus brought salvation straight from the heart of God and staked it into the ground in our world through his horrendous sacrifice. Then the Holy Spirit began to convict and move on our hearts as he did over the darkness of the deep until we no longer have strength to resist His wooing and cave in. And He continues to work to change both our hearts and those He still hovers over in conviction. You can claim that you ceased resisting, but you can’t base your salvation on your “accepting.” The end of your resistance merely served as the creation of the entryway, the access point, through which God continues to pour grace into your life. No, you are no more to credit for that than Jacob was for getting his hip broken.
Ever wonder why we will end up throwing our crowns at His feet? Hint: it’s not a mere gesture of respect.
Also, I’d reserve the “Christian daycare” remarks for those who can’t get along with their brethren but must keep stirring up strife through vain debates (see also the Corinthians), not those who supposedly didn’t read your post right. Christianity isn’t merely a thing of the intellect. I hope to God you at least realize that much.
I don’t care, but FB was acting like he is an everyday contributor yet he only has 59 comments in 1.5 yrs. Lets don’t get into mocking, disrespectful posts (Fb called me a fraud, which is unjustifiable disreseptful) and others have displayed similar behavior towards me.
When I share my faith in Christ I usually ask people a series of questions first, one of which is “To you who is Jesus?” In that question I seek to find out if the person has a personal relationship with God through them speaking in a personal way of Jesus, such as “He’s my savior”, “He’s my…”
Concerning believers who do have a personal relationship with God, I find many are insecure in the salvation of Christ because they believe their salvation is to a greater or lesser degree dependant upon their faithfulness, their goodness, their believing and acting rightly - their righteousness. The more a believers faith is in their righteousness, the less secure their salvation and thus the more they are fearful and resort to ridicule and personal attacks when their faith is challenged. The more firmly our faith is in Christ, His love and His grace, the less we need fear and the easier it is to respond to others who challenge our beliefs with respect and gentleness.
When I look at the doctrines of various churches concerning salvation, I see them as a continuum between trust in Self and trust in Christ. The more a church’s doctrine centers salvation upon believing right doctrine and living right, the more their salation is dependant upon themselves, their righteousness. Of course, the more a church’s doctrine centers salvation upon the sacrifice of Christ, the more their salvation is dependant upon Christ, His righteousness, grace, and forgiveness. If asked why I believe that I’m saved, why I have confident hope of life with God eternally, my answer is simply “Because Jesus died for me.” In spite of my failings, in spite of my misunderstandings of scripture, in spite of my unrighteousness, God loves me and Jesus died in my stead. And the good news is that Jesus died for you too.
I believe that the Lamb’s book of life highlights the fact that Jesus’ sacrifice redeemed all of humanity, purchased all of humanity with his blood. Calvinists believe that the atonement completely effects the salvation of those whom Jesus died for, but they Limit the Atonement believing that Jesus did not die for everyone!
Arminianists believe that Jesus died for everyone, but they Limit the Atonement in effect believing that Jesus sacrifice doesn’t actually save anyone, but that it only makes available salvation for everyone. Though in reality it doesn’t make salvation available for everyone, but only those who are fortunate enough to hear the gospel. Thus for the Arminianist salvation is not only dependant upon the Atonement, but is also dependent upon people communicating the gospel and upon people responding correctly to the gospel. Looking at it proportionately, that means a person actually being saved is dependant upon 2/3 man and 1/3 Atonement. It’s no wonder then that some Arminianist denominations and individuals resort to legalism, because they believe salvation is very, even mostly, dependant upon them believing right and acting right, their own righteousness, not the righteousness of Christ.
Well, I’ve gotten way off topic of the Lake of Fire, but I hope that’s helpful.
The problem, A, is that when challenged on why you seem to think you qualified yourself to be in the book of life, and even in effect put yourself there, you only gave a quote ref to Col as explanation for understanding. Obviously Justin and Sherman (and Sonia) understand very well that those verses you quoted have exactly nothing to do with anyone doing anything to get their names in the BoL (or even with the BoL specifically in view), and not even anything to do with anyone qualifying themselves to be saved, and everything to do with God authoritatively qualifying, delivering and transferring us.
There are other verses you could have quoted (even in Col) in regard to affirming your own share of responsibility in salvation; the verses you did quote (or just throw a reference to however) are about a different topic.
(Heck, you could have even referred to the reference in the OT to God writing names into His book of remembrance in response to the repentance of sinners! You remember that reference, right?–the one we universalists found for you, when you were actually looking for references about God writing in names? It’s back in those links somewhere, that you didn’t want FU to look through as a waste of his time. )
Or you could have explained as a clarification that even though you focused on your own responsibility in reply, you do in fact believe (as per Col 1) that without the Father’s preliminary qualification of you in Christ, and their action (as God) in delivering and saving you, you wouldn’t even have a share of your own responsibility to give.
Either of those would have been a better way to answer.
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13 For **he **has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Note that salvation is completely a work of God. It is the Father who qualifies us. It is He who rescues us. We do not rescue ourselves. And of course, the following verses are very important to.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
And note that God was not only pleased in creating us all, He is pleased in saving us all, reconciling us all to Himself through the Atonement of Christ.
Aaron37, you’re welcome to disregard what these scriptures actually say, but I believe that it is God who qualifies us all to share in the inheritance of the saints, and it is He who has rescued us from the dominion of darkness. He has done that through the cross and is doing that through the Revelation of the Lamb, and will do that through the Revelation of the Lamb. As people recieve the Revelation of the Atonement, they receive salvation, even though their salvation has already been accomplished in the Atonement. It’s similar to the German prisoners of war in WWII, though the war was over, they still lived in the prisoner of war camps until someone came to liberate them personally. Though God has reconciled all things to Himself through the cross, many people are still enemies of God in their own thinking, not yet realizing the salvation that Christ has already purchased for them. The war is over, Jesus has triumphed but most people still live in the prisoner of war camps. Some day though, all will come to the Revelation of the Lamb and realize that their name is written in the Lambs book of life and will experience the redemption we have in Christ.
Of course, there are plenty of scriptures that affirm the importance of faith and repentance in us realizing and embracing today the salvation of Christ, so it’s strange that you would reference a scripture that so evidently contradicts your beliefs. Maybe if you invested more time studying scripture and actually respectfully considering the beliefs of others, instead of making disrespectful comments and trying to cover them with smiley faces, you’d present your beliefs better.
Salvation is where are inheritance exits through being born again by faith. For by grace has salvation ( our inheritance) been delivered unto you and it is appropriated and manifested in your life through faith. ( Eph 2:8; Col 1:12-14) Let me explain:
Most Christians are taught that being “born again” and “saved” mean the same thing. They are not the same thing. “Born Again” literally means a second birth…meaning you had a physical, natural birth, but you must have a spiritual rebirth. You must experience a second birth other than the physical, natural birth you have already experienced.
Saved or Sozo means deliverance from sin or the sin nature: the physical/emotional, financial, spiritual deliverance from the power of sin or sin nature.
Nicodemus approached Jesus ( Jn 3:2-3) and acknowledged him being from God because of the miracles he was performing. Notice, Nicodemus does not ask about the kingdom of God, but look how Jesus responds to him. Jesus tells Nicodemus “Except a man being born again, he cannot see or enter the kingdom of God”. In other words, Jesus was answering the question Nicodemus never got to ask…which was “How can man be with God the way he is with you”? ( performing the miracles, etc) Jesus tells Nicodemus in order for him to walk as Jesus walked he must be born into the kingdom of God.
Colossians 1:12-14 " 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kngdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins.
Now, paraphrasing: Verse 12 is talking about your salvation…Verse 13 and 14 are talking about being “born again”.
Verse 12 tells us that God has done something for us to qualify us to be a recepient and a partaker of the inheritance of the saints in light; ( you can partake of it right now, Jesus has died for you to have it in this life)
Verse 13 begins to tell us how this happened. It tells us how you were qualified for the inheritance.
Verse 14 tells us how we were translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of his dear Son, by the redemption of his Son’s blood ( you have been purchased away from the power of darkness and bought into the kingdom of his Son).
Your qualified to exercise the inheritance now while your alive on this planet because you have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son where that inheritance exits, and the reason you were translated into the kingdom where the inheritance exits is because you got “Born Again” by your faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.
God has determined that you can have a new nature. He is also determined you can be translated into a new kingdom. He has also determined once this has happenned your qualified to operate out of the inheritance, and part of that inheritance is God’s power flowing through you to produce miracles.
A part of this inheritance or salvation includes waiting for the manifestation of our glorified bodies and experiencing heaven, but the rest of it… as far as our life on earth… what it takes to live on this earth… all that inheritance is ours , NOW!
Hi Aaron37, first just want to say thanks for posting your beliefs without negative remarks towards others. Keep it up, it sure makes your posts easier to seriously consider.
Actually, salvation is by grace. Let’s look at Eph.2.8 in its context.
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
A dead person cannot raise himself to life. Even the faith we have is a gift from God. Salvation is completely a work of grace. We are saved by grace. We believe this and live in that grace. Of course, if we do not believe we are saved by grace, but by works (our righteousness), then we’ll not live in that grace. This passage only affirms that salvation is completely by grace, not by anything we do or have done.
Being saved and being born again are two facets of the same diamond. They both speak of when we are raised from the dead spiritually, when God gives us eternal life. Both of these speak of when God raises us from the dead, revealing His love to us, and giving us faith in Him.
As to what Nicodemus was going to ask Jesus, the passage doesn’t say. I think he didn’t know what to think about Jesus and wanted to speak with Him personally to figure out whether or not He was from God or a false prophet. Nic. saw the miracles, but Jesus’ teachings were not like anything he heard in Rabbi school. In the teachings of the Pharisees, salvation, right relationship with God was based on a lot of rules and regulations. Jesus thus got right to the heart of the matter by showing that right relationship with God is completely based on God moving in our lives. As the heavenly parent it is His choice for us to be born of the Spirit, not something that we can control or even choose. It was something we could earn, but something we receive from Him. Jesus’ words effectively challenged Nic’s religious beliefs.
It’s all one scentence, one thing Paul is describing from different perspectives. The Father:
made us partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
delivered us from the power of darkness
translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son
in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
It’s not speaking of two different things, but of one thing, salvation, from different perspectives.
Jesus died for all of humanity, not just some of humanity. We have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Jesus wins and redeems us all. What an awesome truth. Of course, we only reap the benefits in this life through turning to God in faith, but even that’s a gift from God that comes into our hearts through hearing the word and the conviction of the Spirit. It’s all a work of God in us, not something we work up.
The scripture doesn’t says that “God has determined that you **can **have a new nature.” It actually says that God made us, God delivered us, God translated us, and Christ redeemed us. Salvation is completely a work of God. It is completely the grace of God working in us to accomplish His purposes. The more a person believes that salvation is dependent upon themselves, the less secure he is in his salvation. God is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe (1 Tim.4.10). God ultimately saves all people by the blood of the Lamb, and we who believe participate in that salvation now through faith.
Again, Salvation is where our inheritance exits through being born again by faith. For by grace has salvation ( our inheritance) been delivered unto you and it is appropriated and manifested in your life through faith. ( Eph 2:8; Col 1:12-14) Salvation is not by grace alone, but by grace through faith. No where in the bible does it say that faith is a gift of God that we receive to believe. In Eph 2:8 the gift of God is the grace, not the faith, Sherman. God’s grace is where our salvation lies(the undeserved gift) and we must individually respond positively by faith to appropriate and manifest this grace in our lives or we won’t receive it.
Now we’re on different soteriologies: monergism vs synergism. I’m firmly in the latter camp (with the Orthodox). I think proponents of both approaches can be universalists, so I’m not seeing the point at turning the debate to one approach against the other.
It’s a mistake (not that anybody’s explicitly arguing this that I noticed) to suppose that because “I” have some necessary but not sufficient role to play in my salvation, my soteriology is “all” about ME. Likewise, it’s a mistake to suppose that because grace and salvation are gifts and because God has a necessary (though, in my view, not sufficient) role to play in my salvation, my soteriology excludes any necessary role for the individual. It’s neither ‘all’ God nor ‘all’ me. Salvation is relational and relationships of an interpersonal nature are (I think) by definition creative works of synergy. But given the particular KIND of necessary role God has to play, our necessary role is cannot be the basis for boasting. But not being able to ‘boast’ doesn’t mean not have any necessary role to play at all. It’s perfectly possible to have a necessary role to play which is at the same time not a possible basis for boasting.
And yet many in that latter camp do just that… boast - look at me I was clever enough to exercise my free-will faith.
Does God leave a bag of gold outside your door and hope you pick it up and take it to your creditors or does God take the bag of gold straight to them?
I don’t boast. I give all the glory to God. I just received his undeserved grace. His part, grace. My part, believing it. The difference between you and I, Jeff, is I have responded by faith to the love and grace of God and you haven’t. God is not going to make you respond, Jeff. That comes from you, my friend. To be forgiven by God, we must comply with God’s conditions for forgiveness… Not our own.
I wouldn’t deny that’s it’s possible to boast for the reasons you specify, Jeff, but I just haven’t run into it personally–believers actually boasting of the fact that they did something that earned them some praise and respect by simply because they chose to accept grace, to say ‘yes’ to God. But if it happens, it can’t really be evidence against synergism per se, for then (by parity of reasoning) not boasting would have to be evidence FOR synergism, and I wouldn’t claim that either. And then the same is true for monergistic approaches. You have boasting (of a more Israeli sort) on that side, like “Hey, God chose ME. I must be swell. I’m special. You’re not. I’m superior to you.” You definitely have that going on. But not every OT Jew boasted of God’s having chosen the Jews. But some did.
We’re good at perverting our relationship with God however we say it’s to be understood. Not sure that in itself reflects upon the truth of how we say it’s to be understood.
Brother, if God doesn’t turn the lights on, we live in darkness. If God doesn’t raise us to life, then we remain dead in our sins. Yes it is manifested in our life, and we appropriate it through faith; but the key phrase is “in our life”. In the present, there are many people who do not know the Lord, who are separated from God, who do not have a relationship with God - in the present. But in eternity, every knee bows in humble submission, every tongue confesses in faith that Jesus is Lord - to the glory of God. Salvation is about right and restored relationship with God, not about avoiding hell; it’s about coming alive to the things of God who loves us as opposed to remaining in darkness and death. Jesus did not come to condemn the lost, but to save us; and I believe that He accomplished our salvation through the cross. It is not the “Atonement Plus” that saves us, but it is the “Atonement”. It is not “Grace + Faith” that saves us, but it is “Grace” that saves us. We trust in the Grace of God and we realize, appropriate the benefits of Grace; but it is grace that saves us. Frankly, “our faith” needs to be in the Grace of God, not in “our faith”.
But then of course, neither of the scriptures you quote speak of the lake of fire, and the meaning of the lake of fire. So it’s best to take this discussion elsewhere, either to an existing thread or maybe a new one.
As to the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, I’ve already shared why I believe it is metaphorical of Remedial Punishment.
Thank you so much for all your postings. I apologize for being missing from the conversation, however I have been out-of-town without Internet access. I am back now and have read through all of the postings and will continue to contemplate the above exchange. I have some more comments but have decided to put them in a new thread entitled "Conspicuous by Its Absence”.
I hope I have not been too “conspicuous by my absence” from the above conversation.
I’d like to ask Aaron37 whether his assertion that, just because there are no verses in scripture that directly say that Jesus didn’t speak in tongues, jesus COULD have done so is any different to UR supporters assertions that just because no verse explicitly states unbelievers ever leave the lake of fire doesn’t preclude the possibility that they COULD leave it?
In other words do you recognise that insistance on the possibility of Jesus speaking in tongues despite no direct or indirect evidence in scripture is a much weaker position than the possibility of unbelievers being saved out of the lake of fire for which there is no direct verse but much indirect evidence from the rest of scripture?
Or will you just hold to the view that Jesus could have spoken in tongues while not giving your opponents the benefit of the exact same position regarding ultimate reconciliation out of the lake of fire?
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