Here’s what William Barclay said about “kolasis” and “timoria”:
Well, my longest trek has been with Roman catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox and Quaker churches and/or people… This has been associations lasting for years. And while they may believe in it, they really don’t talk about it or emphasize it. I pretty munch side with churches that emphasize one of two things:
Christ’s real presence in the communion service
Mystical experience
That’w why I could never belong to a Baptist, Methodist, Non-denomination, community, bible, etc. - church.
My favorite show on the Catholic TV station EWTN, is The Journey Home, where they talk about folks coming from other Christian churches, etc., to become Catholic. I don’t even remember anyone talking about hell.
Anyway, let me share some interesting famous quotes on heaven and hell:
Hey STP, if you think preaching hell would do no good, why mention it in every sermon? Is salvation simply diverting from hell, or is there some thing more to it?
Thanks
Not quite what I said. I said I didn’t think it would do any good to describe it in detail. And I’m not sure I mention it in every sermon, but I probably do. I don’t say to myself, “Oh, didn’t mention the H word yet, got to squeeze that in somewhere.” No, I mention it when it makes sense to as a part of teaching the Scripture in view that day.
Anyway, I mention it as much as I do (however often that is) because it’s in the Bible (however you understand it, and however you translate it). So to ignore it completely just wouldn’t be right of me as a pastor. Salvation is surely more than diverting from hell, and I spend most of every sermon talking about those things (knowing Jesus, joy, peace with God, the glories of heaven, etc).
“John 17:3 is the only verse in which aonian is clearly more about quality than duration…” AND THIS then should tell you that Jesus’ definition is what should be applied to the likes of Mt 25:46 etc… in other words, it speaks to the quality or FULLNESS thereof, i.e., either the fullness of reward aka “LIFE” or “PUNISHMENT” aka the loss thereof. With regards to the same FULLNESS (or the lack thereof) Jesus describes it this way here…
But here is the rub…
As Davo said:
Why would you want to talk about Hell in every sermon… The good news is that through Christ, God reconciled his creation to Himself.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is a done deal… So some realize the deal and some do not… Though we all will end up bowing the knee 
Paul says in Colossians:
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
Col 1:19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Please realize that God has done His part!
I just respectfully ask *are you preaching that unless you do such and such, you will go to this (dare I say) God forsaken place… *Otherwise known as Hell?
There is an understanding of the relationship between God and Israel, and we as 21 century readers need to know what the covenant relationship really was. If you are telling your flock they may be going to Gehenna, you may need to re think that position.
Thanks.
Chad
That’s exactly what I’m saying we can’t do. We can’t say that a word must mean something in one place just because it might mean that in another. If John 17:3 is the only place that it clearly has more to do with quality that duration (yet still seems to give a nod to duration), I’m not sure that means we can understand all other, or even any other, uses of that word as having to do with more with quality.
I can’t remember ever telling anyone they were going to hell. I repeat what the Bible says, “Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Each person must come to faith in Christ, and I can’t do that for them, and I can’t peer into each heart to know whether they’ve truly done that or not. So I mention the same warning Jesus Himself mentioned, encouraging any who haven’t repented to repent, placing their faith in Christ. Are you saying I shouldn’t encourage faith and repentance for the forgiveness of sins?
This is a great verse Chad and one all too oft read straight through without due consideration… “and He died for all” is fully inclusive of humanity, which the next clause makes self-evident… “so that they who live” out of the aforementioned “all”. The attendant “live” means coming into the fullness of life IN THIS LIFE as per Jn 17:3; 10:10.
It continues… “might no longer live for themselves, but for Him”… THIS is the key differentiating the ‘for all’ from ‘they who live’ – those who “live” SERVE HIM in this life by serving others.
Thus one is “SAVED to SERVE”, not to get to heaven but to serve… heaven is not in doubt!
This… “who died and rose again on their behalf” can be understood either way… as encompasses the beginning of “and He died for all” or as specific to Jesus as the first of the firstfruit saints (my preferred reading) – but as always ON BEHALF OF the greater whole, so the end or net result remains the same.
WELL… IF as you have previously noted and agreed that Jesus’ definition is “…the only verse in which aonian is clearly more about quality than duration…” THEN why wouldn’t you let Jesus’ understanding drive your own use and understanding of “eternal life” and THUS apply such to YOUR use of Mt 25:46 etc? This would seem the most honourably and logically sound thing to do, would it not?
I’m not following your logic there. I thought I just explained why it wouldn’t be logical to do that.
My notes from my reading today. Didn’t get through quite as much.
This is something I've been studying lately. I definitely agree that this is a pattern we see in Scripture. (but is it true in every case?)
"For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:14)
Unless it's talking about "things" such as heaven and earth, and not people.
These verses do not speak about God's "hopes," but rather give us a description of what WILL happen. How we understand what will happen is a different issue.
False dichotomy?I thought it pretty straight forward… you either NO LONGER say “…the only verse in which aonian is clearly more about quality than duration…” OR you do. IF you do still maintain the “clearly” position then where YOU (for whatever reason) find doubt as to the meaning of “eternal life” then why not just go with Jesus’ rendition – which IS there in black and white?
STP,
I’m positively impressed by your ability to pursue all this, and with your desire to stay with the Bible actually says! My difficulty is that you argued the book was wrong e.g. on the item I raised, by stating that “God accomplished salvation for the elect,” yet the Gospel can be received in a real way by all." When I ask what such things mean, you respond that the Bible doesn’t answer what such things mean. I admire the honesty to admit that we don’t know what our language means. But if one concedes that we don’t know what we mean by our critiques of another reading, can you see that it’s hard for another person to assess whether the critique is coherent? For I don’t even know what the counterview that I am to compare means.
Of course, my perception is that some of these things can’t be coherently explained because they’re not what the Bible teaches or means. Even when you says it’s preferable to stick to what the Bible explicitly says, you summarize that’s: “If we want to avoid hell, we must repent” (Luke 13:1-3), it seems to me we articulate traditional beliefs in language that is not what the text actually says or reveals. I see Jesus here warn Jews in a context of Pilate and Rome’s execution of Jews, that unless they change their own direction, they too will “perish,” but this ‘perishing’ is in a context clearly about people suffering physical death (vs. 2). I don’t see where Jesus or the apostles in their own evangelism ever speak of ‘going to hell,’ or urge unbelievers to “avoid hell.” I realize that this probably sounds knit picky, and that you may believe there are other ‘judgment’ texts that add up to implying such language. I guess my point is that it is easy to give our conventional formulations as answers to competing interpretations, but that we may do well to recognize that we don’t even know what some of this language means, and that some of these formulations may deserve a more complex review of what Scripture actually says. Thanks for the privilege of the dialogue with you!
Grace be with you,
Bob
I see what you’re saying, but no, that’s not how language works. Just because a word can have a certain nuance in one context doesn’t necessarily mean that it means that very same thing in another context.
Actually, the only definition of eternal life we have is John 17:3. Jesus literally tells us what Eternal Life is. So, why would we assume it means something different? Imagine with me if we re-read John 3:16 without the Hell/Heaven lens.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whosever would believe in him will not be lost (living aimlessly, without hope) but have eternal (he will know God and his Son Jesus Christ) life.
People who don’t have God and Jesus have no real hope. They have ‘wishes’ but that is it. People who don’t have Eternal Life are living aimlessly. Not real sure where they are going, what they should be doing. But people that have eternal life - Yes, they are not lost. They know what they are living for.
In my opinion, John 3:16 doesn’t say what 99% of Christianity thinks it does, such as “For God so loved the world, that he gave His one and only son that whoever believes in Him will not spend eternity in Hell, but will live forever in Heaven” I do not believe Jesus meant that with his word, not at all.
And again I ask - if Jesus gives us the definition of Eternal Life (the only place in the Bible, I might add, and who else to better define it than Jesus himself?) why in the world do we think it means something entirely different 99% of the time? That makes no sense and defies logic.
Yes true… so, on what basis do you do as you do with regards to the likes of Mt 25:46 that you seemingly rule out what I’ve noted from Jesus’ use of the very term, that you even agree… “aonian is clearly more about quality than duration”? Please properly explain.
I do see your point. But where else in the Bible, out of the 70 other uses of the word, does aion clearly have reference to quality rather than duration? You can’t port over a nuance from a usage of a word onto the word for every time it’s used just because it’s used that way once.
Say we’re sitting on a plane 30,000 feet in the air, and I were to look and you and say, “We’re flying, baby!” Would you assume I thought you were a baby? No, you’d know that words can mean different things other than their literal definitions, and context matters. Later that day, we rent a convertible, put the top down, and floor it to 80 miles per hour, and again I turn to you and say, “We’re flying, baby!” Would you assume we had taken off the ground? No, you’d know, once again, that context matters.
What I’m saying is, John 17:3 uses the word aion in a different way from every other use we see of it. He does it for effect. He does it to call attention to the greatness of the life, and how good it is to know Him. But we can’t then carry that same nuance that He puts on aion in that verse to every other verse we read it in. Language just doesn’t work that way.
It is clearly more about quality than duration in that context, and even then we should not assume that it’s empty of it’s normal usage in reference to duration. It’s like it’s saying “Abundant life is knowing Jesus, and don’t forget, it will last forever!”
DING DING DING… DOOOONG!
Bang on the money. As per my position I am also very much inclined to read Jn 3:16 as primarily speaking of Israel in the context of her then current and near-future history and so read it like this…
And just to quell any confusion… I say “unto the age” in terms of FULLNESS of life into the then coming new age. Thus I am NOT opposed to <αἰώνιον> aiōnion carrying notions of chronicity BUT, there is biblical precedence (Jesus’ own definition) for acknowledging a clarification of said understanding, an understanding NOT given its due respect or acknowledgement in terms of “traditionally read” hell verses.
the fire of god is eternal, once it has consumed sin there is nothing but pure gold shining in it. God is love. God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Our God is a consuming fire.
His love is the light that exposes all sin so that the fire of His love can consume it.
"His eyes were as flames and His face like the sun shining in its strength and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth.
The word of the Lord is quick(living) and active(efective to the point of) dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow, MAKING MANIFEST THE (hidden) THOUGHTS AND INTENTIONS OF THE HEART, for all things are open TO THE EYES OF HIM WITH WHOM WE HAVE TO DO. (Heb 4:12,13)
On the day when God judges(discerns) the secrets of men’s hearts through Jesus Christ(Romans 2)
On that day I will destroy leviathan, the twisting fleeing serpent with the Sword of my mouth. In that Day, sing of it, a vineyard.(Isaiah 27)
Everymans works will be tested with fire, for the DAY will reveal it(1 Cor 3)
The fire never changes but man’s condition in it changes when “Light will shine out of darkness to reveal the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ”(2 Cor 4)
"For it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. 14For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.”…(Eph 5)
"Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.
(Matt 10:26)
And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness overcame it not. John 1
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.(2 Cor 4)
And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations. 8He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.…(Isaiah 25)
For this reason He was givenn the name above all names that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess, that jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil 2:10)
If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me(John 12:32)
I have a couple of questions for small town pastor:
What bible do you use personally and why?
What bible do you use for your congregation and why?
Just curious.