It may not take an age, it may not be agony; as to why not now, I think we can trust God with that.
I agree that “destruction” sounds qualitatively different from “torment.” But which kind of punishment did Jesus seem to be talking about in Matthew 25:46? Because if aion has to do with quality in that verse, as you’ve said I believe, then it’s saying the punishment is very bad.
According to this website, there’s an etymological connection, so that is interesting.
That’s my point, I suppose, for this whole debate. Even if we’re confused about God’s purposes concerning hell, we should trust Him to know better than us.
Agreed. What drives the discussion for me is the realization that our beliefs about the afterlife do affect how we interpret and respond in this life; it’s just a human trait to want to know for sure.
What a diabolically errant assumption… no wonder you lean the way you do; this is nothing but the party-line albeit couched in language of I’d rather believe other than I do but this is the way I feel I am led. 
“Active rebellion” precludes ANY ignorance, which for the majority of people ‘ignorance’ is exactly where they are at… either through the nature of the case OR more likely by the poor caricature of ‘God’ peddled by religianity. But, to cut you some slack even Paul in his own rampant religiosity found the grace of God due to his own ignorance of unbelief, as per…
The biblical story has MORE much more to say about covenanted people being in “active rebellion” (true “unbelievers”) and the consequences thereof of not repenting and following the way of righteousness etc.
But all that said… IF you truly believed (and I doubt deep down you really do) God’s ultimate purpose for the vast bulk of humanity was their eternal conscious torment then why fritter away the hours here over seemingly pointless arguments WHEN there are friends, neighbours and strangers OUT THERE in your own purview in peril of this ‘eternal conscious torment’ you cling to, and yet “how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard” when you are safe and cosy in here playing spiritual scrabble? 
I appreciate your very candid response.
A few things…
I don’t believe in ECT anymore (but close). You can read an update to my beliefs on my introduction thread.
I’m not on these forums to convince anyone. I’m learning a lot about UR, trying to understand it as best as I can, and the best way I know to do that is through dialogue: challenging, talk-about-the-tough-stuff dialogue. If I’m ever to become an Evangelical Universalist, it’s going to be through studying, thinking, and talking it through. That’s what I’m doing here.
You’re right, I should share the gospel more. We all should, right?
Yep I get that… 
I get that too. I’m not an EU, though I was once an evangelical but not these days. I am more an inclusionist which is in a similar direction as universalism, however I’ve ditched certain prior assumptions (we all have them) while embracing others, and yep dialogue helps formulate these things. 
How can you hold fully hold that, in light of the fact that millions, if not billions, of people on earth have never had the opportunity? How can they be responsible if they’ve never heard the gospel even once? Indeed millions have not even heard the name of Jesus Christ except in profanity, and many have not heard the name at all.
IN a book by the Reformed author Lorraine Boettner, he answered this question simply: because God does not want them to be saved.
The name of the book is The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.
Just one of many reason I fled Calvinism.
Thanks Dave, but I do not see how that answers the question. Even if it were true that God doesn’t want them to be saved, it still wouldn’t follow that every person in the world is fully responsible to trust in Christ.
I agree! I was only showing what a particular tradition has to say about the untaught billions. 
I little late to some of this discussion but. . .
STP does not talk about hell in every sermon. I think he does probably mention when talking about how wonderful God’s grace is that one of the things God’s grace does is rescue us from Hell. But he spends just as much if not much more time just talking about the joy we can have now and forever and peace we can have now and forever if we accept God’s grace through Jesus.
Kinda off topic but I’m gonna say it anyway
Sometimes I feel bad about wanting to gas spiders out of my home (bug bombs), or trapping mice on those super painful glue traps, and it is sort of for the same reason. I mean they are God’s creation and I get rid of them in a torturous way. But then I only think about it for a second and then bam I flick that bug in the toilet to die a slow death from exhaustion and drowning. I know most people don’t think bugs have souls and it is different (although mice are mammals and get people talking about dogs or other pets and animal souls gets believed a lot more). But still how can we for the most part think NOTHING of just stepping on a bug and killing it? I hope God is not like that in how he sees us or angels. But it does sometimes haunt me how easily I allow myself to help the little creatures die. Am I cruel? comparing Us to bugs and God to Us; seems like bugs would be under us in importance for sure but not nearly to the amount that we are under God in importance. How do we (as EU) feel convinced that God loves us and values us but yet so easily send a bug off to a torturous death?
I think some of the saints wrestled with this issue. I don’t like bugs or mice and am not giving up getting rid of them when they invade my house, and I also am not going to always try to get rid of them in the most humane way because I don’t have time for that. . . but I do feel a tinge of guilt and start pondering this sometimes.
Exactly!! That of course is typically in error explained away by appealing to the likes of Rom 2:14-16… but again misunderstanding that said “judgment” was in regards to “works” and speaks NOT as is so often claimed to eternal destinies but rather to “rewards” themselves.
IF Jesus came into the world to seek and to save the lost…
…did Jesus succeed or did he fail? Simple question YES or NO?
Many a so-called “believer’s” faith says He failed. 
STP,
From what you have said here, I think many Calvinists would actually welcome you as a fellow Calvinist. 
In my understanding a Calvinist would agree with you about man’s responsibility. Someone like Jim Packer would call the “mystery” of how God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility can both be true an “antimony”.
Many Calvinists also do not believe that God makes people trust in Christ against their will, but rather God effectively works in their life to make them willing, to see his beauty and WANT to trust in him.
Just to clarify, do you believe God does work effectively in some people’s lives, when he really wants to, to change them so that they willingly will turn to him for mercy, rather than continuing in their rebellion?
And do you believe that if God withholds this grace from people, that they will be unable to truly repent and believe the gospel?
Re God keeping his own rules, I agree with you that in some matters, God (or parents as another example) can make rules for others without needing to keep the rule himself.
But an important consideration is that in the matter of love for people, including love of enemies, God says "Be like me, in loving others”.
If a father said to his child “go to bed at 8pm, just like me”, and then the father went out partying until 2am - that would be a problem.
Thanks Dave.
I remember listening to a sermon by RC Sproul, talking about the fall and total depravity. He said one of the most asked questions about this subject was- ‘What about innocent little babies?’ To this RC said (going from memory here) something to the effect of “there are no innocent babies”!
I too came to realize Calvinism wasn’t the way for me.
davo said:
I wonder how many Christians ever ponder on this point?
You know, what? I always respect theology and philosophy professors. They open one up to various viewpoints - even different from their own. I found this interesting segment today: Musings about Universalism, Part 4. It’s nice to read this, as an inclusivist and Purgatorial Conditionalist:
And from that first and third paragraph, there’s no hope for any here - including our STP Baptist pastor 
But if you do go rafting, take a Baptist with you. Well, STP. If I go white water rafting, would you care to join me? The video presenter is a Baptist - by the way.
No no no… this cannot be right about Baptists as the bible is very clear, “the dead in Christ rise first.”
I also found the first answer interesting, in the How am I supposed to know which denomination is correct?:
Here is the question:
Here is the first answer - which I like, by the way: 
I also like this part of another answer, even though I never watched the movie. Has anyone ever seen it?
Now this movie trailer has made me curious, as to what Reverend Fudge concluded - regarding hell. I think it was the annihilationist position. But I’m really a universalism/annihilationism hybrid (after all, gas/electric cars are more practical), with me as an inclusivist and Purgatorial Conditionalist 
No, but BPW and I are going to watch it tomorrow night! It’s free if you have Amazon Prime.