Revelation 5:13 timing


#1

Hi,

I am trying to figure out how does Revelation 5:13 can support universalism if it actually occurs before the first seal was opened ?


#2

I see the Rev as a big wheel. At the center of the wheel is the second advent. The spokes that run to the center of the wheel are the various pictures of spiritual realities like the woman clothed with the sun, the trumpets, the bowls, the two witnesses, the giant messenger, etc, etc. A series of simultaneously occuring visions… as if I was telling a story from divergent points of view to show a well rounded image of the whole process from the beginning(alpha) to the end(omega)- the end being the gathering together of all things into one in Christ,

5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

Turn the wheel into a cone, with the revelation of the Son of Man at the peak, the seven letters to the seven churches/lampstands/stars/messengers at the bottom, the events and images of the sealed scroll ascending and descending up and down((see Mt Zion & the heavenly Jerusalem- Hebrews 12)

To Wit :slight_smile:, I believe Rev 5:13 is the fulfillment of Phil 2:9,10…Romans 8:18-23…1 Cor 15:28…Eph 4:10…Romans 11:32-36

It occurs before the opening of the sealed scroll, showing the Lamb as the Omega, His work fulfilled, “whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times.”(Acts 3:19)…" the gathering together of all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or things in earth"(Eph 1:10)… For He must reign until every adversary is made a footstool for His feet(Heb 1, 1 Cor 15, Phil 2:10, Rev 5:13, Rev 21:5)…That God may become all in all(1 Cor 15:28)…For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory throughout the ages (Romans 11:36)

I believe the sealed book is the continuation of Daniel’s prophecy, the hidden part…

Dan 12:4"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

At the end of John’s Revelation, which is mostly constituted of the unsealing of the scroll, John is told…

“Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near(at hand)."

Don’t seal it up, it is happening now.

“In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.”

I personally believe Ephesians has as many or more keys to John’s revelation than any other portion of scripture.

the unsealing of the scroll(Ephesians 1:3-23-)a kingdom of priests(Eph 2:4-10)the fulness of God(Eph 3:8-19) The manchild(Ephesians 4:10-16) The Bride(Eph 5:22-33) The overcomers(Eph 6:10-20)

Glorious stuff.


#3

Thanks for the reply Eaglesway. But I still find it difficult to understand how could it mean the time after the second death and Lake of fire. Especially taking into account that in Revelation 21:1 it says that there will be “no more sea”. If John wanted to point that eventually all that in Lake of fire will give phraise to Lord, wouldn’t he used a different language?


#4

Peter Hiett’s Sermon of a few weeks ago is a cracker on this subject.

tsdowntown.com/sermon-databa … the-scroll


#5

John’s Revelation is not chronological. The entire book is wheels within wheels. But I was not trying to establish that as doctrine. It is just what I see.

If you look at the language tho, and compare it to Romans 8:18-23, Eph 1:9,10, Colossians 1:15-20 and 1 Cor 15:23-28, the correlation with Rev 5:13 is pretty clear to me. The Revelation of John is explained in phrases that are hidden in plain sight across the entire bible.


#6

John’s Revelation is not chronological. The entire book is wheels within wheels. But I was not trying to establish that as doctrine. It is just what I see.

If you look at the language tho, and compare it to Romans 8:18-23, Eph 1:9,10, Colossians 1:15-20 and 1 Cor 15:23-28, the correlation with Rev 5:13 is pretty clear to me. The Revelation of John is explained in phrases that are hidden in plain sight across the entire bible.

Phil 2:9-11 is the exit from the lake of fire, and that is confirmed in 1 Corinthians 15:23-28


#7

John’s Revelation is not only not chronological, it might not even be futuristic; it’s actually Apocalyptic literature. This literature style was common in 1st century Judaism. It is the language of dreams and visions. Interpretations of John’s Revelation are typically grouped into 4 categories: Spiritual, Historical, Preterist, and Futurist. Interpreting JR is like interpreting segments of “The Lord of the Rings”, “The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe”, “The Matrix”, even “Harry Potter”. JR has much more in common with Picasso’s painting Guernica than it does with Historical Narrative like the Gospels or Acts.

The Spiritualist view is to me the most inspirational. The Preterist view is the most verifiable, strong, solid to me. And the Historical view is the most readily seen throughout history. And the Futuristic perspective to me is the least clear and the most open to a wide variety of interpretation. And it is sad that JR is almost always interpreted from the Futurist pov. In fact, most evangelicals do not even realize that JR is Apocalyptic Literature and can be interpreted from at least the 4 perspectives mentioned.


#8

By the way, it is not just the Revelation, it is also Psalm 96 and the timing seems the same, before the judgement


#9

My hopeful universalism has nothing to do with Rev 5:13. As a preterist I’m still hoping to find a convincing preterist universalist theory that explains the Bible’s verses about every tongue confessing.

Are you a preterist towstt? Also, are you an ET or annihilationist?


#10

I agree with that, with the exception that I think the Preterist view and the Spiritualist view are almost one in the same… I also believe there is an Instructional view to John’s apocalypse. Many of the pictures in Rev are parallels to instructions and exhortations given in the epistles. The definition of the body in Ephesians 4 is quite manifest in Rev 10. It is also impossible(imo) to read Rev 10 and not see Hebrews 12 as parallel.

It is a picture that says, “This is what we are becoming”. “This is what we are meant to be”. “This your target, Behold…Comprehend”.


#11

While many a prêterist could draw any amount of personal “spiritual” lessons from the likes of John’s ‘Revelation’ the “Spiritualist view” as you put is not close to that of prêterism. Amillennialists typically hold to a “spiritual” application of ‘the Apocalypse’ and or other NT prophetic texts… prêterists view as history in the making and fulfilling the NT time-frame constituting the AD30-70 era.

Most amillennialists although futuristic in their “end time’ expectations are versed enough in the Scriptures to not be blinkered by dispensational premillennial eschatology. Some amillennial folk have even moved towards the postmillennial view and in the course of events come to embrace the partial prêterist position, only then to find that “consistency” has driven them into the FULL logical measure of that position. Some, and I’m one of them, could no longer deny the inclusive conclusions inherent within the logic of full prêterism and have adopted what some of us call pantelism… ALL, both eschatologically AND soteriologically has been FULFILLED.


#12

That pretty much requires a spiritualist viewpoint, in order to bend around all the verses that dont fit into the preterist view. :laughing:


#13

the first seal opening is the beginning of a narrative contained within a scroll with 7 seals, probably the sealed book of Daniel.

“But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” Dan 12:4

And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. (Revelation 5:1-4)

So in Rev. First in the intro to the book, like all intros, it tells you what it is about. A message to the 7 churches in Asia. A revelation of Jesus to the Lampstands- punctuated by the emphasis, "Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

This message is being opened up in the heavenly vision where John watches the opening of the sealed book and writes what He sees in the visionary scroll, which is punctuated 2 times with separate visions of the second coming of Christ.

Before the book is unsealed, throughout Rev 5, we are given a vision the kingdom of preists(many sons to glory, the revelation of the sons of God Rom 8) and the restoration of all things, in a Hebrews 12, Phil 2:9 scenario…

It is, again, an introduction, a preface to the sealed book showing a vision of the finished work alluded to in Romans 8:19-23, and Acts 3:17-19 the revelation of the sons of God and the restoration of all creation. This is very clear in verses 9-13- we are seeing the fulfilled view right there. The rest is just the details :slight_smile:

At the end of the sealed book, John is told not to re-seal it.

22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near.

Everything from verse 6:1 up until 22:6 is the contents of the sealed book- SO Rev 5: has no chronological relationship to what follows, it is a vision of the fulfillment of Eph 1:9-11; Phil 2:9-11; Col 1:15-20; 1 Cor 15:23-28: Rom 8:18-23 and Rom 11:32-36.

As Paul said, the whole creation groans and travail with the pangs of childbirth even until now. This restoration is the point of the whole thing, and Rev 5 is the introductory stanza before the sealed book is brought into play.

again, after the sealed book has been read in completion, its target audience is re-iterated…

“I, Jesus, have sent My angel** to testify to you these things for the churches**. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Of course these are all just my opinions and I am sure they will be heartily disagreed with :laughing:


#14

Revelation 5:13 does not occur before the first seal was opened. John is seeing a vision, not telling what happens then & there.

If the universal salvation described in the verse happened before the first seal was opened, then the first seal would never be opened, because there would be no need for it.

Revelation 5:13 is John’s vision of universal salvation that will be literally fulfilled in the future. You could call it the chapter 23 or missing chapter of Revelation. It equates to the “I am making all new” of Revelation 21:5.

It includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).


#15

I don’t see this Psalm as being parallel to Revelation 5:13 or havnig much in common with it. Apples & sea weed.

How could the - fulfillment - of what John ‘experienced’ & ‘reveals’ in Revelation 5:13 be at any other time?

That there will be “no more sea” (Rev.21:1), if “sea” is taken literally in both passages, only seals the deal that Rev.5:13 refers to universalism.

John speaks of a “door open in heaven” and a voice telling him to “come up here” (Rev.4:1). Then he says “I was in the Spirit” (4:2) and at length describes things & events in heaven. From this heavenly perspective “in the Spirit” is revealed to him what is detailed in chapter 5. Everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons, are worshipping the Lamb. This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12. All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).

That is a description of universal worship, including those in heaven, on & under the earth, on the sea, & all that is in them, making it clear that no one is excluded. Were all actually doing this, worshipping God, in John’s time many centuries ago? No. But God calls those things not being as being (Rom.4:17) and sees the end from the beginning (Isa.46:10). He gives this revelation of universal worship to John. Lest any say that it is a revelation of the saved in the new earth after the wicked have been annihilated, he includes a reference to the sea, so it is clear he is talking about every being who ever existed before the new earth, Satan included.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of “every creature” & to emphasize this again he repeats “and all that are in them”:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - “the Lamb that was slain” (v.12 & 13).