Jeff,
Actually it’s the only thing that kept God from increasing the pressure. (God loves John Elway)
SLJ,
if it doesn’t heal overnight, then Fred’s gonna be alot more damaged than Tom in infinite because he remains torn to shreds where Tom never ever gets torn.
So logically and biblically it seems that there will be degrees of reward in Heaven and degrees of punishment in Hell.
I did 3 years of maths when I was doing Engineering, and so I’m still almost certain my maths is correct, however, it looks like I’m going to have to find a mathematician to back me up, as you three still disagree with me 
I don’t think the question will be settled by mathematics. 
Whatever the numbers say, I’m sure God could make a way of creating degrees of suffering. 
But, seriously, important things are being left out of the construct. The biggest, in my opinion, is the aspect of hopeless separation from God (as is taught in the traditional doctrines of hell) which would be overwhelmingly distressing, even in the absence of tremendous physical suffering. It is to be separated from all light, all life, all love, all hope, all that is good and makes existence worth having. Can there be “degrees” of that? The horror of “conscious death” experienced by the hopelessly lost would be a worse terror than anything imaginable.
Unless you subscribe to a CS Lewis style “gray town” hell, where all the inhabitants are delusional and unaware of their state. But that really doesn’t fit scripturally. The light will come and reveal all things and no one will be allowed the comfort of their illusions, excuses, and fantasies. Everything–truth–will be seen by everyone and known for what it is.
And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I don’t have a problem with degrees of suffering, but then I believe the suffering is for good and will accomplish God’s good pleasure. Infinite punishment accomplishes hurt, but does not result in the righteousness of God–which is unity in Christ.
Sonia
Sonia,
Am I hearing you right? Are you arguing for epistemic closeness in Hell? LOL.
LOL I guess I am. Hell as resulting from the presence–closeness–of God and the truth He is and reveals.
Sonia
Let’s go back a step, Abanes (whoever he is) made the entirely legitimate claim that biblically it seems there will degrees of punishment in hell and degrees of reward in heaven.
CS Lewis in The Great Divorce illustrates this concept very clearly. Down in Hell Hitler etc were moving further and further away into Hell and in Heaven, that lady, worthless on earth was a hero in heaven, admired and respected.
Clearly duration (eternity) is not altered by magnitude (rewards or punishment). I think this distinction is important in Salvation as well Alex, God saves or condemns for eternity but there is still a judgement of works at the end of time.
I had never heard of him either, until Joe gave me the article (I put as much as I know about him in the opening post)
The problem is two fold.
ECT:
Jill gets 300 units of pain per year, for an infinite number of years.
Bill gets 200 units of pain per year, for an infinite number of years.
]Jill & Bill are separated from God forever, and this, in and of itself, is far worse than any amount of pain./]
]After an infinite number of years, Jill will have experienced 300 times infinity units of pain & Bill will have experienced 200 times infinity units of pain. If you ask a super computer “Does Jill end up worse off than Bill?”. It says false! That doesn’t seem fair or just, and not what the passage is saying 
/]
EU Hell:
Jill gets 300 units of pain per year, for 1,000,000 years.
Bill gets 200 units of pain per year, for 1,000,000 years.
]Jill & Bill after a 1,000,000 years, repent and are reconciled to God, and then forever they will enjoy blessings and joy that brings and after an infinite number of years with God, the pain they suffered will make up zero % of their experience (300,000,000 compared to infinity = nothing) ./]
]After a 1,000,000 years, Jill will have experienced 300,000,000 units of pain & Bill will have experienced 200,000,000 units of pain. If you ask a super computer “Does Jill end up worse off than Bill?”. It says true. That seems fair & just, and what the passage is saying 
/]
As “palatable” an option as this is, I don’t think it fits ECT or EU, because it doesn’t take into account some of the images of hell that we have e.g. fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc.
Nods.
Only if the duration isn’t infinite, otherwise you run into the issues above.
I agree.
You’re right, I need to think more about the rewards side of things with the infinite duration 
Suppose Fred screams once a day, but George screams twice. After an infinite time, both will have screamed an infinite number of times.
Absolute separation from every good thing isn’t relative misery (or even absolute misery). It’s annihilation. Existence is a good thing. Space and time and consciousness are good things. How can you have hell without them?
Hell isn’t absolute separation from every good thing. Rather, it’s the painful process of being absolutely separated from every bad thing.
Thanks for the correction, I totally agree.
Alex,
You’re stuck on the calculation thing, I’m trying to say that they’ll be varying levels of reward in heaven (for example the parable of the talents, Luke 19) and varying levels of punishment in Hell (for example the parable of the unwatchful servant, Luke 12) . Then I illustrated it with two characters from the The Great Divorce, showing that despite being in heaven or Hell the experience of the residents of both are different. I’m not describing Heaven or Hell at this point but simply showing that Scripture is correct when it speaks of varying levels of punishment (and reward).
You agreed that duration and magnitude are different but in your mathematical example you were confusing the two. As your esteemed father (AllanS) did as well. But what if you were to ask:
Does this make a mockery then of Jesus’ parable of the talents? (Your argument that is, not you, obviously, you silly!) If not why not? Why does magnitude only exist in Heaven and not in Hell? If magnitude of punishment or reward doesn’t exist, why is there a judgement of works?
Sorry, I honestly was hoping to get my point across, but looks like we’ll need to chat in person sometime to resolve it 
I have no doubt that there will be varying levels of reward in heaven and varying levels of punishment in Hell. However, when Abanes comes along and tries to convince me this is a great demonstration of God’s Justice, I cringe. It’s kind of like giving a lolly pop to one person in a group of people on death row, and saying, “It’s not so bad for you compared to the others here” 
i.e. It doesn’t matter if Hell is just painful for one person and really painful for another, the fact of the matter (with ECT) is that they are never getting out, and that over shadows everything.
Sure.
Sorry but I’m not entirely clear what you’re saying here. Yes, being united with God is better than ruling over cities. Yes, after an infinite number of years Jill & Bill will have done the same about of ruling. i.e. an infinite amount. Yes, both have been rewarded by God.
No. In the short to medium term it matters, but as we all get closer to God, I assume the amount of reward will matter less to us? (Glad only my argument is a “mockery”, and I’m just silly )
Sorry, where did I say that? Magnitude exists everywhere. It’s just Abanes was trying to point to it Hell, and say, “Look what a great example of Justice”. Which makes little sense, if they aren’t getting out.
I think there is, but that ECT makes it illogical, or at least trivialises it. i.e. big deal if some are “only” in lots of pain, whilst others are in extreme pain, if none are getting out. At least with EU, there’s a purpose for the pain, and that it’s only short term (compared with eternity).
Should we move on, and see what else Abanes says?
Alex,
Sorry I’ve come across too strong on that point. Your right, eternity with or without God far surpasses what occurs inside either state. If I was to leave something of my argument it would be that you can’t entirely write off the idea of biblical rewards and punishments over and above salvation or condemnation.
That’s cool, no harm done 
I totally agree.
Sorry, I unintentionally gave you the impression that I had written of biblical rewards and punishments 
By no means, I only think ECT made them insignificant (because compared to an eternity without God, etc. etc.).
Righty-o then,
Technically, He probably didn’t say “hell” but “Gehenna”, “Hades”, etc. but ignoring that, EUs believe there is Hell (just not ECT) and that it’s very unpleasant and should be avoided. Particularly as a relationship with Jesus is much better 
Wow, big claim. First reaction was “What about Paul?”. Anyway, I think it would be worth taking a look at those passages in more detail…
Bed time, God willing I’ll get a chance to comment on these tomorrow
I like the way you guys treat each other with a gentleness. Would that this were the norm
It helps that I’ve known my cousin since I was born
The contentious bit is They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from[a] the presence of the Lord. It’s interesting that they say it could also be translated They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction that comes from the presence of the Lord, as that might imply that being in the presence of the Lord, is punishment of eternal destruction? Anyway, assuming that isn’t what it’s saying, I can think of a few things:
If the Greek word “aionion” was translated “beyond sight” rather that “eternal”, that lessons the absoluteness of “destruction”.
Ironically, I can also quote Packer’s arguments against annihilationism, to support EU here
So I agree with Packer here, I think it’s not annihilation, but probably unlike Packer, I reckon it’s talking about the destruction of what’s evil within a person. Alternatively, it could be bringing someone to “rock bottom”, in order that they see their need for God and repent.
I like the phrase, “The Truth That Hurts”, because I believe it is judgment, our encounter with Truth that hurts and heals. It’s terrible, but good for us, medicine that purifies and heals our souls. When we encounter the absolute truth concerning our lives, there will be plenty of weeping (repentance) and grinding of teeth (angry at ourselves remorse), kicking ourselves in the behind! I suppose that’s why I’m so glad that salvation is by grace; I increasingly realize the depth of my depravity. As Isaiah said, “All my righteousness is like used toilet paper!” Everything about me is polluted by my selfishness - even my love for my wife and children. Woe is me, but for the grace of God!
Judgment, remedial punishment, and any rewards are truly “olam”, “aionios”, beyond site, far exceeding our ability to perceive, far worse/better than we can even imagine! We can be assured though that “whatever a man sows, so shall he reap!” Even though our faith is in the grace of God, if we sow to the flesh we shall reap destruction! I’m always amazed that though I’ve come to believe that Jesus ultimately saves all, I’ve also come to have a much greater dread of judgment for myself, even though I believe it’s for my/our good. I’ve been given so much, that the parable of the talents really worries, humbles, saddens me for I know I’m not close to faithfully using a fraction of what God’s given me. And concerning the parable of goats (sheep) and kids (goats), I can’t count the number of times I’ve been so consumed in my own stuff that I failed to even acknowledge the greater needs of those around me. Even the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins bothers me for I don’t know how many blessings I’ve missed by not being prepared.
I believe that the scripture was not written in vain that says that the Lord shall dry every tear, for we shall all likely have many tears to cry in repentance when we stand in the presence of truth and all our self-deception is stripped from us and we see ourselves for who we really are. I’ve tasted of the judgment of the Lord, and it is terrible! But it worked in me good. By misinterpreting the passages on judgment as separating believers from unbelievers, it nullifies the power of these passages to call us believers to righteous living. And it doesn’t do the unbeliever any good either because they don’t believe anyhow.
Nice, I like your thinking.
Apart from finding it disconcerting that Americans spell “sight” as “site”, I totally agree
Although, I think we must also remember that God won’t try us beyond what we can bear (& the passages about His yoke/burden being light?).
I think that’s a very important point. People complain EUs don’t have the “fear of Hell” to keep the youth inline, however, I’d say giving them a the impression that God won’t discipline/purge them…
It’s been suggested that some things require the purging of Hell. The same issue comes up with “blaspheming the Holy Spirit”. I’d also note that the “fury of fire” could be a purifying fire, cleansing and consuming all evil in the adversaries and bringing them to repentance (which means they would be no longer adversaries).