The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Rom 6:23 Revisited

Dear Gabe, just from an argument point of view, and I don’t mean this in a bad way, but . . . you have merely stated, and that without proof, that nature and creation have the answers and the Scriptures do not. And you basically stated you can’t be certain concerning the three different outcomes for humanity but you can be certain when it comes to nature and creation. I maintain one can be certain that eternal conscious torment and annihilation are wrong and universal reconcilation is correct. If one can be sure of nature and creation, why is there so much infighting and fighting from the outside concerning nature and creation? If one can be sure of nature and creation, why are so many scientists constantly changing their models? And why do you think Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount is the truth for all mankind and is what Christ requires of all mankind (which He doesn’t). You see, Gabe, you made some statements that are not a way to win an argument. Humbly stated of course.

That’s odd because reading Gabe’s statement above I simply concluded he might have had the likes of these texts (proof) in view…

You may not understand that I am not here to win an argument. I dropped that mentality years ago. Certainly my statement was a broad one at that and not entirely anti-learning. Searching for the truth is of the utmost importance - but where is the truth found? Anywhere and everywhere that truth exists is where it is found. Who reveals it? God. Who teaches mankind? God.

If one searches for truth at the expense of living the truth they already know then truly it is a waste of time. If you spend hours trying to figure out from the ancient text who is right and neglect your family, feeding the poor, etc… what have you gained? Are you waiting to figure it all out before you decide to get out in the sun and start producing? If you take my statements as absolute, then of course you will disagree with me, but statements are generally not intended to be absolute and without exception.

Yes indeed!

“Truth” IMO and “the search thereof” tends to be a little malleable and therefore relative. I’d be a rich man IF I had a dollar for every “truth” I ever camped at and subsequently praised God for, only then in my endless searchings come to move on beyond such to the next great realisation. A typical example might be when one learns of the Trinity only then in time coming to have one’s conviction turned to embrace a counter position… and yet all the while when embracing said positions holding fast to said “God-given” revelations; is there no end AND is God fazed or worried? — I highly doubt it.

I’ve personally come to the conclusion God doesn’t have an issue with me being wrong. :mrgreen:

The Sermon on the Mount is only for Israel. Believers of the nations do not need to cut off their hand or pluck out their eye so we can escape Gehenna. We are saved by grace. Likewise, our righteousness does not have to be above that of the scribes and Pharisees or we won’t make it into the kingdom Christ is going to set up in Israel. In fact, believers of the nations won’t even be entering that kingdom on earth. We of the nations will be among the celestial realms during the time the believers of Israel are on the earth.

Here is another from that sermon: "Mat 5:5 “Happy are the meek, for they shall be enjoying the allotment of the land.” That is only for Israel. We believers of the nations are to be given celestial bodies to fit us for the celestial kingdom. We won’t have any allotment of the lane [of Israel]. That is for Israelite believers.

Here is another from that sermon:
“Mat 5:22 Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, ‘Raka!’ shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, ‘Stupid!’ shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.”

Believers of the nations do not have to worry about being brought before the Jewish courts of the Sanhedrin. Nor do we have to worry concerning being cast into the trash dump called “Gehenna” during Christ’s 1000 year reign on earth. For us of the nations, “there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.” And “God is not reckoning our offenses to us.”

The same thing goes for leaving an approach present on the altar if we offend someone. We don’t live in Israel and so do not go to the temple in Israel to leave an approach present. In fact, there isn’t even a temple yet nor altar in Israel where we can leave an approach present. The Sermon on the Mount is the law of Moses on steroids and the law is only for Israel.

Thank you for proving from the Bible that we can trust the Bible to be true. I wonder if Gabe will tell you he has changed his mind about the Bible now.

Okay, next time I will read your posts with that caveat in mind. I thought you were trying to convince us of your opinion. Next time I won’t take you so seriously.
It is not about winning an argument. It is about putting forth what you believe to be true and then, we give our ideas concerning that.
The Scriptures are God’s revelation to man as to Who He is and what He is going to do with mankind through His Son. Nature can’t tell you this. Nature can’t tell you that God is going to head up all in the Christ, all in the heavens and all on the earth. Nor can nature tell you all the blessings for the universe which come through Christ’s sacrifice.
I don’t believe it is a waste of time to search for the truth in the Scriptures. God doesn’t expect us to live perfectly or in perfect love while we are still maturing nor even after we have matured in the faith. The exhortations in Paul’s epistles to the nations are the ideal we should strive for. They are not laws one must do or be damned.

Davo said

I LIKE IT :exclamation: :smiley:

Frank Schaeffer, son of the revered Francis Schaeffer, in his biography said:

For us to ‘get it’ is a farce. Be it science, theology, humanity, anything. The complexity of creation is, well, a miracle. I am of the opinion that the creator wants us to enjoy the journey. :smiley:

Just curious if you get it that “Christ died for our sins”? Is that subject to being a farce? Just asking. :wink:

Eusebius, Just want to wish you and all of your loved ones a very Merry Christmas and I am praying that you have a very happy and productive New Year :exclamation: :smiley:

Thank you maintenanceman! I wish the same for you too! Much appreciated!

I imagine that is sourced in Catholicism?

Paul is the apostle of the nations. We do what he entreats the nations to do. Christ told the Sermon on the Mount only to Israelites. It is their law. We of the nations are not under law but under grace. Rejoice in that!

Without reading ALL of this (I skimmed it), let me just say that the take-away for me, from the Sermon on the Mount, is that Jesus is showing His listeners how absolutely insufficient their ability to keep the law actually IS. Yes it is for Israel, who considered themselves saved by keeping of the law of Moses (particularly certain tenets of the law such as circumcision and the tithe). Yes, it applies to all of us in that we are ALL alike incapable of keeping the law, whether by keeping the law of Moses or of keeping the spirit of the law, which is love. The law is good and not evil, but the law can only show us that we are dead (without Christ, that is). We cannot save ourselves–neither the Jew nor the Gentile nor, in fact, the Barbarian. NONE of us can save ourselves. We are all in the same boat, which is one of the main themes of Paul’s epistle to the Romans. We ALL need the faithfulness of Christ. We cannot pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Doing so is an appealing proposition, but it can’t be done. It’s a nonsensical proposition from a physics point of view to begin with, and it’s profoundly unworkable from a spiritual perspective. It simply can’t be done. Jesus says, “Moses commanded you, but I SAY to you…” and then He ups the ante. In essence, He is saying that a literal “obedience” to the law is not good enough. You have to go way beyond mere mechanical “keeping of the law” if you want to be found righteous. He is displaying the hopelessness of any attempt to save ourselves.

Later through Paul (Jesus was sent to the house of Israel) we learn that the Jew and the non-Jew are to become ONE new man with Christ as our head. We are not two distinct peoples. We are one new human, coming from a common source or head–the prototypical human being (an alternative translation of “Son of Man”), Jesus Christ. I myself do not see an alternative destiny for the house of Israel and the ekklesia. As I read Paul, we are one in Christ or we are, alike, among the ‘yet to be reconciled.’

qaz, I kind of like that :exclamation: :smiley:

I heartily agree, qaz. Jesus’ teachings differed greatly from those the Mosaic law. Jesus said, “It was said to them of old-time… but I tell you…” He didn’t even suggest that it was God’s law or even Moses’ law, but identified it only as “It was said to them of old-time.” The apostle Paul called Jesus’ teachings “the law of Christ.” He indicated that he himself was under the law of Christ, and he asked the Galatians, who were trying to keep the Mosaic law to bear one another’s burdens and in this way to fulfill the law of Christ.

*1 Corinthians 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.*

Christ’s law, unlike the Mosaic law never required people to have their disobedient sons put to death, to stone to death adulteresses, and to cut off a woman’s hand if she tried to protect her husband (if her husband was losing a fight) by grabbing his opponent’s genitals.

Instead of getting vengeance on your enemy, even killing him as was done in Moses’ day, Jesus instructed his listeners to be kind to their enemies and pray for them, and then they would prove themselves to be truly children of God, for God is kind to evil and unthankful people. Paul said that God’s kindness is meant to lead us to repentance.

Jesus ended his instructions with these words:

Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” (Matt 7:24-27)

He said EVERYONE—not just the Jews. “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them…” Clearly He thought it possible to do what He said! In my opinion, the idea is ludicrous that Jesus was teaching these things to show that it is impossible to keep them.

Again, Paul who left religious Judaism and came under the new order in Christ, declared himself to be under the law of God which he indicated was tantamount to the law of Christ. We need to be with Paul in this also, and then we’ll “found our house on the rock.” Jesus clearly said that if we don’t do the things He said, then our house is built on sand—and that it’s gonna come down!

His teachings were sometimes stricter than the Mosaic law, but certainly not impossible to keep.

Hi Cindy,
In the ecclesia of the nations, which is comprised of Jews who came over to Paul’s evangel and are now in the same body of Christ as the believers of the nations, there is now no Jew nor Greek.

However, under the Circumcision evangel, there definitely is a difference between Jew and Greek. In Galatians, Paul said Peter was Judaizing the nations but playing the hypocrite when eating with some believers of the nations and some from James came, Peter withdrew from the table of the believers of the nations.

Believers of the nations called “Uncircumcision,” do not have their allotment in the future, in Israel with the Circumcision. Believers of the nations, comprised of some Jews but mostly Gentiles will have a celestial body and be taken among the celestials while, at the same time, Circumcision believers will remain on earth to subject the nations to Christ.

If one really understands Paul’s epistle to the Galatians, one will understand how the Sermon on the Mount is not for us of the nations.
This might be helpful:

Hi Paidion,
Not to be a Debbie Downer (Saturday Night Live) but . . . That is an overly simplistic approach to state that when Christ said “everyone,” He meant everyone on the globe. If you read Galatians, it is noteworthy to see it is improper to mix law with grace. The sermon on the mount, as given to His disciples, is the law on steroids. It is not meant for us of the nations.

Mat 5:1 Now, perceiving the throngs, He ascended into the mountain. And, at His being seated, His disciples came to Him.
Mat 5:2 And opening His mouth, He taught them, saying,

Without God, it is impossible while we are flesh. See Romans 8:7,8.

The sermon on the mount was given to Christ’s disciples who were of the Circumcision. He did not give that talk to the nations. Sorry but we weren’t included. The sermon on the mount is all about the law of Moses with even greater restrictions given to Christ’s circumcisionist disciples. It really is the law of Moses on steroids. It most certainly is legalism in the greatest sense of the word. Believers of the nations are not in danger of the fires of Gehenna if they call someone a fool. We are under absolute grace. But a Circumcisionist Jew is in danger of the death penalty and having his dead body cast into Gehenna rather than receive a decent Jewish burial just for calling another Jewish brother a fool.

Hi, Eusebius

I understand your POV–I just disagree with it. I think the Jews are treated the same as anyone else–but I could certainly be wrong. There are plenty of people who don’t come to Christ in this life. I don’t know how Father draws them to Himself, but I know He does. Anyone who doesn’t know Jesus now will need to come to know Him–He is the way, truth, life, and no one comes to the Father but through Him.

Blessings, Cindy

Eusebius, from what I understand, true Israel = true Christian = true believer of any nation = circumcised (of the heart) =living in the Spirit=one who obeys the word of God ( God’s Law)= one who follows Jesus.

Uncircumcised = unbeliever= one who does not follow the Spirit of God = one who does not follow Jesus.