I think Paidion makes a good point. You seem to discard the possibility that God designed His word in such a way that its *universal meaning *was able to be expressed to (and thus found its way into the hearts and minds of men and women in) each succeeding generation after Christ. This is what Catholicism (via Aquinas) would term the spiritual sense of Scripture. Not saying there aren’t false interpretations of course, but using your example one might say Jesus did “great violence” to meaning by almost exclusively speaking figuratively to His audiences. Holding to what the Bible actually [or literally] says is fine as far as it goes; most Christian mystics agreed with Aquinas that the literal is base or starting point meaning. But today literal meaning has been placed on a pedestal and worshipped by a large percentage of Christians–evidenced in part by the endless arguments over semantic subtleties and the aforementioned difficulty of the various factions within Christianity to resolve their differences.
I’m sure there are plenty of examples of misuse of Scripture to fit cultural norms, but I’m pushing the notion there’s more to the Bible’s meaning beyond where the literal is able to go…the question is do we have “ears to hear” it?
Perhaps so. I think we would agree that we mustn’t confuse ‘literal meaning’ with ‘correct interpretation’; I want to understand Paul literally as in the sense of: THIS is what he was saying, to THESE people, for THIS purpose. I don’t think we have plumbed those depths yet.
Also, we can’t go too wrong with Coverdale (yes, again):
“It shall greatly help ye to understand the Scriptures if thou mark
not only what is spoken or written,
but of whom and to whom,
with what words,
at what time, where,
to what intent,
with what circumstances,
considering what goeth before and what followeth after. ”
No not at all… I think there’s a “possibility” you are reading (misreading) more into what I’ve actually said. Let me quote again what I’ve stated previously in this thread that answers your notion…
That’s a little carte blanch… Jesus used a number of modes of speech according to his audience, sometimes plainly and sometimes more veiled; even so, his message got through to the Pharisees to where “they perceived he spoke of them” — and the only violence being concidered was what they wanted to do to him.
Has been quoted by a presenter here. It’s to show that God only shows the “truth”, to a certain select group of people. And that the majority of Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches and theologians, have been deceived. At least, that’s how I have understood our presenter. Let’s look at another understanding (among many different understandings out there, mind you), by the Calvinist site Got Questions at
Thanks for clarifying davo. I was only responding to the thought quoted, true, not the whole of your post.
I see the spiritual side of Scripture operating in two distinct ways, subjective and objective (for immediate lack of better terms). You seem to be identifying the subjective aspect wherein God is thought to “speak” to individuals through certain passages. This drives the literal-only crowd nuts as anything outside their manmade rules is automatically eisegesis. To give fair due, because the speaking of the Holy Spirit in this way to individuals is subjective, though the meaning would likely contain objectively true elements, it would be meant for that person alone and will probably have few if any objective standards [from an external viewpoint] by which to confirm its authenticity. The proof would exist only within that person’s own experience.
The second, objective spiritual sense–what I felt you might disdain in your post; there are a large number of Christians today who do–would be the ordering by God of the literal meaning of His chosen authors in such a way that it gives rise to “new” spiritual principles unavailable to the literal sense. This sense provokes meaning that, in most cases, the authors themselves are unaware. My literalist brethren scream exegetical eisegesis at the top of their collective lungs at this one. I parenthesize “new” because this method, though immediately and firmly dismissed by the historio-grammaticians (new phrase?), would actually point up “changes” to traditional doctrine that have been in the Bible all along but–because humanity is always ultra-focused on its literal sense-- has not been recognized. Note Jesus’ criticism of the Pharisees who steadfastly tithed their dill, mint and cumin (keeping the literal law) while ignoring the ‘real’ stuff, the incorporeal and normatively powerful qualities that *should have *provided proper motivation for the literal keeping of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness (Mat 23:23).
It’s from this second objective spiritual sense of Scripture that I noted in an earlier post Universalism, if it has legs to stand on, will find its justification. Universalism seems to be just as mired down in the literal mud as her sisters. Heck, Calvinists and Arminians have been beating on each other with the weapons of literalism for over 400 years with no resolution in sight.
I guess it’s carte blanche because it’s generally recognized that the lion’s share of His teachings were figurative, davo.
Personally speaking, one of the bigger problems I see when it comes to the Bible and the interpretations of it, is when people take it to mean life after we leave this earth. I think this is because many do not see the spiritual truths of what is being said happening right in front of our eyes as we speak. For example, when we say Jesus takes away the sin of the world, well since there is still sin in the world this must mean that at some later date, far in the future, Jesus will come, and every human being on the face of the earth will live together as one in a sin free world, all at the same time. As this seems unrealistic to some, then what is said must be talking about life after we leave here. However, if one should open their eyes, I believe they would see that what the Bible speaks of is right before them.
True… but that doesn’t mean what Jesus said was undiscernible, e.g., he who has two tunics give one away; going the second mile, all speaking to heart attitude, much as you allude to with Mt23:23 etc. Of course the wooden literalist might indeed have missed-the-boat, if you get-my-drift . But that said, I’m sure Jesus was patient with the likes of Nicodemus… “what, enter a second time!?”
While I find grammatics invaluable I tend to lean towards the historic-narrative approach because it acknowledges the fact that none of the workings of God happened in a vacuum but were time and people specific… which is NOT to say such doesn’t have currency beyond, BUT appreciating historical context can help in minimising errant interpretations of given texts, especially eschatological / prophetic texts… which is the path I’ve come along in my journey into the inclusive reality of God’s grace to all.
Again true… I sense on some of this we may probably be closer than further apart. I myself am more an inclusionist than a universalist as I don’t subscribe to many of the universalist rationales, other than the total reconciliation of all… I just happen to get there via a different path.
That’s right LLC. One example of this is the evangelical notion that inheriting eternal lifeequates togoing to heaven when we die… and thus then the formula of how to get there i.e., ‘The Roman Road’ etc, where being “saved” = “getting to heaven”; and so we have… “Unless a man is ‘born again’ he will not go to Heaven when he dies” — otherwise read as —Unless a man is ‘born again’ he will be annihilated, or suffer eternal conscious torment in the fires of Hell — that is the evangelical reading and interpretation the 3rd chapter of John’s Gospel; but is this correct?
What Jesus actually said was one could neither “see” as in to comprehend nor “enter” as in to apprehend “the Kingdom of God” as a present reality without an internal reboot i.e., “the rebirth”. The Greek aorist infinitive of both these words indicating… actions as having occurred with indefinite results — Jesus was not pointing to some future state of being or to some future destination beyond the grave in terms of “Heaven” but rather a present standing or condition in God of having one’s heart and mind opened up to know the reality of His presence ‘in the here and now’. This is that which Jesus elsewhere calls “eternal life”… something which is qualitative more than quantitative; it is relational not spatial — much as Jesus and John say here…
Not so sure we ever leave this earth. We are born into it. We live in it. We die and our bodies go back to it. Then, in the resurrection, we come back to it again, because heaven is coming on earth. The veil is rent. Heaven is pouring in. “And God separated the waters above from the waters below, and He called the waters above heaven”…
The life we receive now is the same life we will always have. it is expanding from within us like the leaven in the dough. The aperture is opening wider and wider.
“Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven” is the vision and the goal.
“Yet once more will I shake the heavens and the earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains”
“And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.”
And what is the temple of God that is in heaven?
"In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit:…“Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?”
And what is the ark of the covenant that appears in the temple?
“Christ crucified”, the Word in the wooden box within which the branch that was cut off still bears blossoms of life and the manna from heaven- crowned by the cherubim on either side of the mercy seat where God came to receive the offering of the blood of the spotless firstborn lamb
“I shall be their God and they shall be my people and I will live among them and walk among them”
Yea, I dont think we are “going to heaven”, I think heaven is coming to us.
“But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”
That is why the whole creation groans in the pangs of childbirth even until now.
“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."(Peter at Pentecost)
What was Pentecost all about but the pouring out of heaven into the earth, and as Christ was lifted up in them, they lived as if the new heavens and the new earth had come among them- because it had…
"And they were all as one soul…no one among them had any need…great grace was upon them all…signs and wonders took place at the hands of the apostles.
"Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord… And you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit… ""Whom the heavens must receive UNTIL the period of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times.
To me it all sounds like it is "coming down out of heaven
“Lift up ye gates, and be lifted up you eternal doors- that the king of glory may come in…who is this King of Glory- the Lord strong and mighty”
The kingdom of heaven is within, and the deeper the higher, “Deep calls unto deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls O Lord!”
“And I heard His voice and it was like the sound of the rushing of many waters, like the praises of ten thousands od ten thousands of His holy ones”
“Come, all you that thirst, drink freely of the water of life”
“He that believes in me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water, this He spoke of the Spirit that should be given to all them that believed, but the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”
“And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.”
Christ in us, the hope of glory.vNot so sure we ever leave this earth. We are born into it. We live in it. We die and our bodies go back to it. Then, in the resurrection, we come back to it again, because heaven is coming on earth. The veil is rent. Heaven is pouring in. “And God separated the waters above from the waters below, and He called the waters above heaven”…
The life we receive now is the same life we will always have. it is expanding from within us like the leaven in the dough. The aperture is opening wider and wider.
“Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven” is the vision and the goal.
“And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.”
And what is the temple of God that is in heaven?
“In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.”
And what is the ark of the covenant that appears in the temple?
“Christ crucified”, the Word in the wooden box within which the branch that was cut off still bears blossoms of life and the manna from heaven- crowned by the cherubim on either side of the mercy seat where God came to receive the offering of the blood of the spotless firstborn lamb
“I shall be their God and they shall be my people and I will live among them and walk among them”
Yea, I dont think we are “going to heaven”, I think heaven is coming to us.
“But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.”
That is why the whole creation groans in the pangs of childbirth even until now.
“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."(Peter at Pentecost)
What was Pentecost all about but the pouring out of heaven into the earth, and as Christ was lifted up in them, they lived as if the new heavens and the new earth had come among them- because it had…
"And they were all as one soul…no one among them had any need…great grace was upon them all…signs and wonders took place at the hands of the apostles.
"Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord… And you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit… ""Whom the heavens must receive UNTIL the period of the RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times.
To me it all sounds like it is “coming down out of heaven”
“Lift up ye gates, and be lifted up you eternal doors- that the king of glory may come in…who is this King of Glory- the Lord strong and mighty”
The kingdom of heaven is within, and the deeper the higher, “Deep calls unto deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls O Lord!”
“And I heard His voice and it was like the sound of the rushing of many waters, like the praises of ten thousands od ten thousands of His holy ones”
“Come, all you that thirst, drink freely of the water of life”
“He that believes in me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water, this He spoke of the Spirit that should be given to all them that believed, but the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”
“And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.”
Christ in us, the hope of glory.
“I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.”
“Lift up ye gates, and be lifted up you eternal doors- that the king of glory may come in…who is this King of Glory- the Lord strong and mighty”
The kingdom of heaven is within, and the deeper the higher, “Deep calls unto deep at the sound of Thy waterfalls O Lord!”
“And I heard His voice and it was like the sound of the rushing of many waters, like the praises of ten thousands od ten thousands of His holy ones”
“Come, all you that thirst, drink freely of the water of life”
“He that believes in me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water, this He spoke of the Spirit that should be given to all them that believed, but the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”
“And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.”
Christ in us, the hope of glory.
"Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
One of the problems I perceive is that students of the Scriptures put the Circumcision writings in with the Uncircumcision writings, into a big pot, stir them up and say “this is for us.”
There is a vast difference between the future allotment of the Circumcision believers and that of the nation of Israel and that of the uncircumcision believers of the nations.
God does not give the believers of the Circumcision celestial bodies when they are resurrected and neither do they meet the Lord in the air when He returns for the believers of the uncircumcision.
Believers of the Circumcision have an allotment on earth in Israel.
Believers of the uncircumcision have a heavenly, celestial allotment among the heavens.
Christ is going to set up the kingdom which is OF the heavens in Israel during the 1000 year reign and also on the new earth.
Since God is giving believers of the nations celestial bodies, this is to equip us for when we enter our realm among the celestials. Paul wrote to us of the nations that “our realm is inherent in the heavens.” “Inherent” means “belonging.” So when we meet the Lord in the air per 1 Thessalonians 4:17, we will be transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love (Col.1:13) and seat us among the celestial realms (Eph.2:6). And our job description will be:
Eph 3:10 that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God,
At the same time, Peter and the eleven apostles will be judging the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28) and discipling the nations.
Yes I see what you are saying in principle. As far as celestials are concerned… Jesus is the protypical celestial. He is returning to earth and bringing heaven with Him. All of creation is travailing in birth pangs for the celestials to be revealed(if one wants to put it that way) and set the whole creation free from futility, into the glorious liberty of the children of God. Post judgement, in the age following, or there abouts- all will undergo the restoration to celestial being- which is our glorious liberty. We already have the seed of it wthin us, having been given birth in it(as the children of God) by the emplanting of the incorruptible seed, which is Christ in us. Eventually all will be gathered into celestial being- using Knochs term for it, because God will be all in all. We will be the implements of that. Of being raised in celestial bodies Paul spoke in some detail that there will be a diversity of glories, such as the variety of the glories of stars, super novas, comets and various heavenly bodies, and the new heavens and the new earth will be, imo- celestial in nature- “Behold, O am making all things new”. That newness is the celestial being of Jesus Christ- and being conformed to His image who is “the radiance of the Father’s glory and the express image of His nature”. If any man be in Christ Jesus, he is a new creation.
So in the dispensation of the fulness of times, God is gathering all things into one in Christ(whether things in heaven or things in earth), and as Paul said, the branches that were cut off the one olive tree will be grafted in again, “Therefore all Israel will be saved”. Already, among us, “the one new man”, there is no difference, because the partition is taken down in Christ- as Paul said again, “For to this day when Moses is read, for them the veil remains, but we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, with ever-increasing glory(from glory to glory), by the Spirit, who is the Lord.”
Whenever the veil is taken away for them, in this age or the next, they will also be transformed in that same image for they will behold Him as He is.
“Brothers and sisters, we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”
Anyone who sees Him as He is will be transformed into that image, that new creation in Christ, each in their own order, according to the individual glory that God will give each one, through the dispensation of the fulness of times- no matter what differences we may see concerning the details of that administration.
We are learning that principle now hopefully-
"Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.Ro 12:1-3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith."
Paul is essientially speaking of humility there, as that is the “acceptable offering” (a broken and a contrite heart You will never cast out) and proves what is good, acceptable and perfect- as James also expressed in differnet temrs in in James 3:13-18
“But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies into conformity with His glorious body, by the power with which He is able to subject all things to Himself.” (Phil 3:21)
“Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the holy prophets since ancient times.”(Acts 3)
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. Heb 1:1-3
He is heir of all things, and anyone who is in Him is a joint heir, a son or daughter born not by the will of man or the will of the flesh, but of God. The inheritance is over(and under as serving reconciliation and restoration) the entire creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col.1:15-20
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God Ro 8:18-21
This glory is that of the celestial, and it wiil “swallow up” all that is stuck in futility (death, chaos, sin, tohu and bohu)- until all is glorified, all is celestial, first in us, and then in all- each in their own order.
On one hand the Bible is full of examples of individuals knowing and others not knowing, i.e., the subjective possession of spiritual truth. The OT prophets–assuming (as I do) that they transposed into language what they were shown in spirit–are prime examples. The majority did not immediately believe them. What is more interesting to me is how we react to truths we can’t hear (Luke 11:47, Rom 1:13, etc.). Christ was also treated as the prophets were (Acts 7:52, Jn 7:19, 8:37, 8:40-46).
The spiritual principle associated with this opposition to truth seems to also have objective and universal application. Any time a spiritual and normative concept is presented to our minds we each stand generally either for or against it. We either “hear” it or don’t. Obviously reality is more complicated than this. Assuming there are myriad elements within intellectual operation that either “hear” or “don’t hear”, that unite or resist, the world view of each individual is a hodgepodge of (often conflicting) hearing and nullifying, embracing or disputing. (And this is only our reaction* to truth*; to try to factor false normative propositions into the mix gives me a headache.)
Point being, truth embraced by a certain class of people subjectively is valid, but when taken too literally it’s easy to end up corrupting *the extent of *exclusivity, as in the *‘we are the only ones going to heaven because truth resides with us’ *mentality. On a broader scale, elements of hearing and not hearing is scattered through every mind in every age. “A” just likes to beat “B” (who can’t “hear” a truth “A” is able to grasp) over the head with his truth. [C’mon, we all do it.]
A deeper problem is that sometimes the truth used to club the other guy is, as in the case of complex concepts, composed of partial truths. Thus, Eusebius’ comment, "One of the problems I perceive is that students of the Scriptures put the Circumcision writings in with the Uncircumcision writings, into a big pot, stir them up and say “this is for us.” based on a literal reading of the Bible, fails to take into consideration the universal, objective and spiritual truth that Scripture is designed by God to account for truth on different levels–in this case, that His truth exists on both subjective and objective levels simultaneously. Therefore a falsehood (there is only a subjective rendering of truth A) arises in the midst of a truth (there is a subjective rendering of truth A).
You read too much into my comment; I didn’t suggest that Jesus’ teachings were “undiscernible”, only that there is an element of hiddenness in figurative language. I believe there are likely truths in the Bible hidden from all or most of us. Being hidden, I can only conjecture, but the nature of how revelation seems to work itself out–is initially presented symbolically or figuratively, is resisted [often violently] by the masses before gradually being accepted–suggests that there’s something obscure to us about prescriptive truth.
You speak against
Interesting ideas. But it also occurs to me is that those of us who believe there exists just the formula for salvation you seem to reject also have: A) a book that spans thousands of years by multiple authors whose writings, presented concepts and worldviews seem to also agree with the idea, and, B) Jesus’ symbolic expressions also seem to harmonize quite well with the idea of the perfection of the soul at a later date (or perhaps more accurately on a different plane of existence).
I’m not detracting from your more idealistic notion that there’s an immediate reality that’s tied closely to the mind and its perceptions that we miss by focusing on future stuff. There seem to be some things in the depths there worth mining. I’m curious, do you see the view of traditional Christianity as looking forward and beyond from a reality splattered with evil to future perfection as entirely replaceable by waking up (at point of physical death?) to the reality that evil was merely programmed into the Matrix we were plugged into? I assume that unlike the movie where Neo ‘woke up’ to even greater evil than that experienced in the Matrix, we will wake up to perfection and realization that the illusion of evil was just used as a tool or pathogen to strengthen and perfect us somehow? Again, not rejecting out of hand, I think this stuff is fascinating but can’t find a point of entry in my experience or understanding to merge with it. (Too deep in the matrix maybe?)
And hey…I thought you weren’t going to talk to me any more since I didn’t want to discuss fundamentals of the faith…?
And some, BartW, don’t get truth, even if it’s standing right in front of them - like Pontius Pilate
And your whole last response to me, BartW, raises epistemological issues, regarding what is objectivity and subjectivity. As a hint to my method, I just follow pretty much, the **Critic of Pure Reason **by I. Kant.
You’re right. I kind of forced subjectivity on the literal and objectivity on the universal because I “see” them that way in regard to expressing truth. Does seem a bit murky in retrospect.
. But that said, I’m sure Jesus was patient with the likes of Nicodemus… “what, enter a second time!?”
— yep I think Bart indeed had someone else (you) in mind thinking it was me.