Romans 13: does it call us to do whatever our governments tell us to?


#21

Chad - I’m concerned that you might be:


#22

Let’s add a video - for emphasize:


#23

It is interesting that no one seems to be able to offer any scriptural reference as to why my posts are not relative… Everyone wants to go with the status quo. Have at it.


#24

Chad - I respect your posts and find them interesting; you have a unique point of view.
I’ve posted scriptures that seem to me to be pointing to a continuation of God’s ways into the present age, and you were kind enough, in one or two of them, to call them ‘crap’. :slight_smile:
Well, we have sparred in a good-natured, but pointed, way before this.
Where we kinda lose touch is on the ‘that was them, this is us now’ dismissal of scriptures that take them out of the running, and as a result I cannot find where the continuity of Christ’s reign to the present day and forever actually IS in your line of thinking.
Or another way to put it - where are the scriptures backing up your position.
More important - what exactly IS the position you are taking? I’d love to be able to talk about it.
Peace bro.


#25

Tit for tat. You know my position. You are bailing on me bro…


#26

I agree, folks go with the status quo. I have great difficulty, in getting people - to buy my theory…that the ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE…is the most probable, end times tribulation scenario.

Of course, with sola scriptural …we have everything from Christian Science to Swedenborg … and anything in-between.


#27

first of all, where were they?


#28

You are fun.:wink:


#29

Okay, to understand the responsibility of current Christians to follow current political leaders we should look at some scripture and facts:

Joh 1:16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(John. 1:17).
The Law contained a foretaste or a shadow of what was to come. The “real deal” fulfillment would come through Christ, but the Law gave us images and concepts to help us understand the spiritual reality that is ours in Christ. Things like the tabernacle, the priesthood, sacrifice, the temple, etc., all pointed to the coming everlasting world where righteousness dwells.
To fully understand prophecy and the nature of fulfillment, we must look at the difference between the Old and New covenants.
The many pairs of contrasting words – flesh and spirit, works and faith, earthly and heavenly – point to the differing natures of these covenants.
John writes in his gospel, “For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John. 1:17). Since it is clearly stated that Moses gave the law, and Christ gave truth, it is evident that two paradigms existed that are different by nature. This raises the question: What law is spoken of, and what is meant by truth? Responding to this question may not be as easy as we think. To define truth, for instance, it would be easy to go to John 17:17 and apply the statement of Christ,
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
While the word of God is truth, this is not “truth” being spoken of in John 1:17! The “word of God” contains the law, as Exodus 20:1 tells us: “And God spoke all these words….” There was nothing contained in the law devoid of divine revelation. Paul said, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good” (Romans 7:12). One cannot make truth in John 1:17 mean merely the word of God without making the law something other than the word of God. The law was not the truth given by Christ, nor was this truth the law, but both were the word of God. What, then, is the difference?
If we can understand what the law was, especially in this context, we will be in a better position to understand what truth is. The book of Hebrews is devoted mainly to describing the nature and purpose of the law system. Hebrews 10:1 says,
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things….
The law, to some extent, was a temporal system of services and ordinances that were shadows or types of “good things to come,” but there’s not a 1:1 correlation. The “good things to come” were spiritual realities – “truth” – the very Good News of the in-breaking reign of God (“the gospel” itself). The purpose of the law was to foreshadow these spiritual things by their types, or shadows. This is the only way we can really understand spiritual dimensions. The physical realities, the types and shadows, had to be established so that they might serve as metaphors for spiritual reality. The picture here is of God as a divine author, establishing characters and settings in the first chapters so that the climax might make sense to the reader. The law was first necessary as a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24), or to the truth. This relationship is illustrated in this delightfully old-school figure you see here. (We’ve been exploring these ideas since the early 1970s, y’all!)
This relationship between the law and truth is further explained as a pattern (KJV) or copy. The writer states,
So it was necessary for the copies [patterns] of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things had to be cleansed with better sacrifices than these. (Hebrews 9:23)
“Patterns” here refers to elements of the law system that were purged or sprinkled with the blood of animals. The heavenly elements were purified with better sacrifices, the sacrifice of Christ rather than animals. The law system contained the copies (patterns) of the gospel system, with the patterns being “only about food, drink, and various ritual ways to wash with water. They are regulations that have been imposed until the time of the new order.” (Hebrews 9:10) The things reflected by the copies were heavenly – or spiritual – in nature. The temporal ordinances were imposed on them until the time of the new order, or the time that truth would be brought by Jesus Christ.
This truth also is presented in Hebrews, that describes the priests under the law:
Who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For [God] said, ‘See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.’ (Hebrews 8:5)
The tabernacle built by Moses never was intended to be anything more than a pattern or copy for the purpose of leading humanity to the archetypal – the heavenly or spiritual tabernacle – the one made without hands (Hebrews 9:11).
Those who served in this first tabernacle served to foreshadow heavenly things. Moses gave the temporal patterns, but the heavenly or spiritual product came by Jesus Christ. Those who are looking for a rebuilding of a temporal temple, and a restoration of national Israel to Palestine, fail to see the spiritual application of those temporal patterns given under the law. The pattern period has been completed, never again to be restored with divine blessing. These patterns have served their purpose – they have illuminated the spiritual copy that was intended.

Taken from ‘The Spirit of Prophesy’

So as we see (or at least I see) we are presented with a position that shows that the old covenant was indeed necessary but indeed done away with and a new covenant has been put forth, and the pattern as used in the above text, shows of things happening THEN, not at some point in our future.

Though the reality and completeness of the Christ event was totally sufficient for all of man kind, our adhering to and or our rebellion of current political leaders as a belief to some out dated ‘fundamental’ necessity, is both ludicris and unnecessary.


#30

Thanks Chad!!! For taking the time to do this; I want to understand. I agree with what you quoted and your remarks. But that was as you stated, the Old Covenant.
The next step, when you have the time, is to explain what the ‘new covenant’ IS, and why or why not it was only for THEM, or does it include us and if so, how?
Or if you could point me to an article that specifically deals with it. I’ve tried to locate something on my own but came a-cropper.
Dave


#31

No, read the text.


#32

#33

You have to understand the relationship between God and Israel to understand the text.


#34

I do understand God and Israel. I understand the text. What I don’t see there is God and US.
I’ll look around.


#35

Yes that is what you are looking for. You will find it. He is our God and sent his Son. We are all recipients of the crucifixion, so go backwards and look at what the prophets proclaimed.

Good luck and love ya bro.


#36

I have looked at what the prophets proclaimed. It’s what Jesus proclaimed that concerns me the most, especially since he is now seated at God’s right hand and is in fact King of the Earth and co-sustainer of the Universe. It feels, and I’m probably wrong, like you want to write off his current ministry as a thing of the past.
Looking, looking…


#37

So why are you saying that I am so wrong on so many levels?

I have tried to show why I believe that the reign of Christ was fulfilled in the first century, showed some biblical proof and have, I believe been pretty constant on this view.:grinning:


#38

What of Christ NOW? If I may ask?


#39

You are alive and vibrant, You have abilities, and the ability to see those that are challenged. That is where Christ lives. When we see those who are challenged and need help, we rise to occasion. It does not matter if it is in your own family or your work place or meeting someone in the grocery store, that is what Christ is about. We can change others lives by simply taking the time to acknowledge them.

I pray you understand my position.

Love

Chad


#40

I will certainly try. Thanks again.
You could maybe try to understand my pov, based on the following link, which you previously called ‘bovine feces’. For the life of me, I can’t see anything in it that you would object to.

http://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/how-can-the-bible-be-authoritative/