The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Salavation or Destruction

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#9

Well, being an “ultra-universalist,” I believe that every passage in the OT and NT which speaks of a salvation being enjoyed by people prior to the literal resurrection of the dead is necessarily a temporal salvation. So I think they’re actually quite numerous. In another thread I wrote:

"In the NT alone we read of salvation from enemies (Luke 1:71-74), the Gentiles (Acts 26:17), sickness (Luke 7:50; 13:16), love of money (Luke 19:8-10), sinking (Matt 8:24-25, 14:30), earthly trials (2 Peter 2:9), Egyptians (Jude 1:5), and the fear of death (Heb 2:14-15). But by far it is moral corruption and evil from which people are said to be saved, or to be in need of salvation. For example, we read of salvation from sin (Matt 1:21; 6:13; Luke 1:77; John 1:29; 8:33-36; Acts 5:31; 13:36-39; 26:18; Rom 6:16-23, 7:21-25, 8:1-4; 1 Tim 1:15; 1 Pet 2:21-25), from slavery to evil behavior and passions (Tit 3:3-5), the kingdom of darkness (Col 1:13-14), captivity to the present evil age (Gal 1:3-4), impiety and worldly passions (Tit 2:11-14), a corrupt generation (Acts 2:40), the defilements of this world (2 Pet 2:20), a life of futility in following the ruling power of evil (Eph 2:1-5), futile ways of living (1 Pet 1:18-19; 2:1-2), going astray (1 Pet 2:21-25), etc. There are a few verses that speak of being saved or delivered from God’s wrath (Rom 5:9; 1 Thess 1:10; 5:9). But nowhere is it indicated or suggested that God’s wrath ever refers to a punishment to be experienced after death. Instead, God’s “anger” or “wrath” refers to his disapproval of sin expressed in temporal judgments upon the guilty, during this lifetime (e.g., Ex 22:24; 32:10; Num 16:46; Deut 29:23, 28; 2 Kings 22:17; Job 14:13; Isaiah 9:19; 13:9; Jer 7:20; 42:18; 44:6; Eze 9:8; 21:31; 22:20; Luke 21:23; John 3:36; Rom 1:18; 2:5, 8; 12:19; 13:4; 1 Thess 2:16; 5:3, 9; etc.).

I think the best way to determine what the “salvation” was of which Paul spoke in Phil 1:28 is to determine who the opponents of the Philippian Christians were. I submit that they were the same opponents of the believers in Thessalonica - i.e., the unbelieving Jews (1Thess 2:14-16; 2Thess 1:5-9; Acts 17:5-8, 13; cf. Phil 3:2, 18-19). So when were they “destroyed?” Answer: when their nation was overthrown by the Romans in 70. At this time, I believe the kingdom of God “came with power” (Mark 9:1; Luke 21:31-32; cf. v. 28), and all believers everywhere were granted entrance into it, to enjoy for as long as they lived. This inheriting of the Messianic kingdom by believers (both Jews and Gentiles) was, I believe, the salvation of which Paul speaks in Philippians 1.

#10

Hi Gabe,

That passage could (and usually is) read to mean the **absolute and final **end of the person–but I don’t see that Paul *necessarily *means it that way. Jesus said there are two roads–one leading to life, and one leading to destruction. The end of the path is destruction–but after that, what? The Potter destroys his marred vessel, and makes it anew.

I could tell a person “if you keep that up you will ruin your life” or “end up in jail”–but I don’t mean that he will be forever in jail, or that the ruined life will not ever be salvaged.

Paul’s focus in this is to urge his hearers to be sure that they are really walking as they ought to, to be humble, willing to suffer, considering others more important, etc–because “many” are walking (I assume these are ones who think they are Christians) and are really the enemies of God. I relate this the times when Jesus said that people will calll him “Lord” and think they are doing service to him, but he will say “I never knew you” and send them away in disgrace, “weeping and gnashing their teeth”. – That could be called the destruction of all their hopes and expectations–the riches they thought they had stored up, the mansion they thought they had built, the praise, glory, crowns, robes, streets of gold which they thought were waiting for them, all gone and nothing left but rags and shame.

But I don’t see that as the final irrevokable end of the person. God may abase the proud, but He also lifts up the humble.

Sonia

#11

Gabe asks a serious question for the universalist. Why would Paul call destruction the “end” of the enemies of the cross?
If universalism is true, wouldn’t it true to say that their “end” is salvation?

Philippians 3:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)

18For (A)many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even (B)weeping, that they are enemies of ©the cross of Christ,

19whose end is destruction, whose god is their (D)appetite, and whose (E)glory is in their shame, who (F)set their minds on earthly things.

#12

“Destruction” is their temporal end (i.e., their end in this life, as mortals), not their final end (as immortals). Paul speaks of their final end in the two verses that follow (vv. 20-21): “But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all to himself.” Even those whose end in this life is “destruction” will ultimately be raised immortal by Christ and subjected to him, so that God may be “all in all” (1Cor 15:21-28).

#13

Destruction is their end in this life? How so?

#14

I guess in a similar way that other people are said to be “destroyed” in this life without their post-mortem existence or ultimate destiny being in view:

“But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.” Matt 12:14

“The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.” Matt 22:7

“They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.” Luke 17:27

“…but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all…” Luke 17:29

“He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others.” When they heard this, they said, “Surely not!” Luke 20:16

“And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’” Acts 3:23

“For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.” Romans 14:15

“If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.” 1Cor 3:17

“And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.” 1Cor 8:11

“We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.” 1Cor 10:9-10

“While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.” 1Thess 5:3

“But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.” 1Tim 6:9

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” 2Pet 2:1

Paul likely has in mind the same “destruction” of the Jewish people that he spoke of in 2Thess 1:5-10: 2 Thess 1:5-10

#15

“And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.” -Philippians 1:28 (KJV)

Who were the adversaries? The Jews.

What was the ‘token’ (the proof - the evidence) of their destruction? Hindering the advance of Christ’s kingdom.

What was their destiny? Wrath and destruction.

Will all of Israel be saved in spite of that wrath and destruction? Yes, according to Paul.

So what’s the lesson? Be a good token yourself. Stop gloating.

#16

How can you say that the Philippians only had the Jews as their adversaries?

#17

Because that’s what history tells us. Taking Paul’s letter out of historical context creates problems. The Jews were the adversary up to 70ad when they were destroyed and Nero was taken out of the way. Men are drawn to Christ and the Gospel everywhere and at all times.

No one should be blamed for rejecting another gospel. They are not the adversary. ‘All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.’ phil3

#18

You said:
“No one should be blamed for rejecting another gospel.”
I don’t know what was meant!

#19

Examples of other gospels:

Islam is another gospel. In their gospel Christ returns, everyone is resurrected and evildoers are tormented for eternity, according to the Koran.

The full-preterists have another gospel that says the resurrection has occurred and is occurring invisibly.

A person is not blameworthy for rejecting these and other gospels.

#20

Are you saying this in response to some assertion that I, or someone else uttered?

#21

Well, I had in mind Aaron37’s idea that persecution is a sign of being ‘in the truth’ when that is not necessarily so. His gospel looks exactly like Islam’s to me - and was developed 600 years after the cross. I think the propensity of religion is to reject the good news and to substitute it with another gospel that ensures their new message is heard.

#22

Thanks for this post, Aaron. I hope to get back to you on this when I get the time to look at these verses more in depth.

#23

lol I just realized that there is a typo in the title of this thread. I hope everyone knows that this topic has nothing to do with saliva.

#24

:laughing:

I didn’t even notice the typo until you pointed it out. But hey, Jesus did use saliva one time to heal a blind man… :slight_smile:

#25

Some might like to be aware of the evidence why some of us think that the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation.

Is the Doctrine of Limited Punishment, Terminated by Destruction True?
auburn.edu/~allenkc/annihil.html

Another online book that shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch.
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four
(If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
lighthouselibrary.com/read.p … or=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

There are also several expositions that do the same thing on a less comprehensive scale. They are accessed through the search engine at the top of the front page at
tentmaker.org

For example, two are
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL
tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD DESTRUCTION?
hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html

#26

Perhaps like the people of Noah’s day who are also described as having “descruction” as their “end”,
even though they will yet be resurrected & may have had the gospel preached to them while dead:

Genesis 6:13, New International Version
So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.
I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

The destruction (Phil.3:19) might also concievably continue to, or into, the afterlife or a future age or ages, e.g.
the millenium or lake of fire or both.

Another take is that Phillipians 3:19 refers to believers who cannot lose “life eonian”, but suffer loss in other ways:

concordant.org/expositions/check … ance-love/

#27

John 3:16
DEATH AND DESTRUCTION ARE NOT ETERNAL - Kenneth Larsen
Jesus knew that John 3:16 was not the end of the story…that’s why He continued to John 3:17 and talked about the salvation of all mankind!!!
Jesus makes no attempt to use verse 16 to negate or qualify verse 17. He simply makes both statements side by side as if both are completely true. The reason He does this is that both ARE completely true.

We see this over and over in Scripture, especially in the writings of Paul – a statement about people who have faith now (maybe a warning or exhortation or encouragement about the benefits of taking part in the kingdom of God a.k.a. the next two ages of life on earth) right next to a statement about how Christ accomplished the justification of all men. See Romans 3:23-24 and 5:18 and their contexts for example. This is no big deal; none of these statements negate, qualify (change), or contradict each other, because both concepts are 100% true. Some will be saved from death early and take part in the kingdom of God, and everyone else will be saved from death later.

To attempt to use some statements (about those who get saved early) to negate the others statements (about the eventual salvation of all) is to butcher the common sense rules of language and communication. We would never do this to each other in everyday communication; the only reason people try to do it to Jesus and Paul is because they cannot bring themselves to believe the plain statements about the eventual salvation of all mankind.

If I said to my kids, “Those of you who help me clean the yard today will get to go to a movie with me tomorrow, and next week I will take the rest of you to a movie,” I have made it very clear that all the kids will eventually go to the movies. My two statements do not contradict each other or negate each other in any way. This is the exact same thing Jesus does in John 3:16 and 17 – He makes two equally true statements. Yet “hell mindset” Christians try to make one statement negate the other in order to fit their preconceived inherited ideas.

“What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish or be destroyed?”
tentmaker.org/FAQ/perish.htm

#28

Sounds a lot like…