The serpent is not mentioned as being Satan by any biblical text, but lets just pretend it is him. Satan (in Job) is described as having his origins from earth as God specifically asks him where he comes from. The war in heaven where Satan is called a dragon and warring in heaven he was thrown down to earth taking 1/3 of the stars (not angels but stars) with him. We know that Satan could go to Heaven, that doesn’t mean he is from Heaven. We know that Satan is from the earth, he said it himself. We also know that God’s Kingdom has NEVER been divided because a kingdom divided against itself will fail. Therefore, Satan origin is from earth, he at one time had access to Heaven but he was thrown down back to earth.
Since there is NO biblical source that describes Satan as an angel of ANY REFERENCE, nor is there any BIBLICAL reference that Satan has his origin in Heaven. Since it was Augustine who pushed the Fallen Celestial angel theology, and knowing Augustine’s previous learning and religion prior to converting to Christianity, we can also confirm that this doctrine is extra-biblical and belongs to Manichaeism. Lucifer is a latin word referring to a Roman belief of an demigod name Lucifer who heralded the morning before Sol/Helios/Apollo entered the day and one day Lucifer along with his wife Phospherous felt that they would challenge Sol/Helios/Apollo for the right to bear the Light. Gathering up the other lights in the sky, he waged war but lost and he along with those who helped him were cast down to earth. Venus, Jupiter’s daughter was given the duty of light bearer. Mancichaeism teaches about fallen angel theology.
If a person is educated on world religions and the history of those who ‘shaped’ Christianity, it becomes more and more evident that what people believe as Orthodox Christianity has very little to do with Christianity.
6 One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and the adversary also came with them.
7 The LORD said to the adversary, “Where have you come from?”
The adversary answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” [Job 1]
One could infer that the adversary is part of the sons of God (angels), but not necessarily. The coming from could be at this particular time, not forever. But, who knows. Always found it kinda eerie. Who is this guy?
Wasn’t Lucifer the angel lightbringer (morning star) in the Old Testament? The tester?
I don’t have time to even read the majority of this thread, but I wanted to respond to something that caught my eye as I skimmed:
omnipresence vs. confined to one place at a time,
is a false dichotomy.
If the Accuser is a supernatural being then this would imply that he’s not spatio-temporally limited to a maximal degree. Omnipresence would imply being Creator, but simply transcending the natural order as we know it in some way would not.
Satan is probably one of the fallen sons of God in the OT. Jews tended to regard such beings as experientially real.
YLT Job 1:6,7
And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith,From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.’
There is no indication that the Adversary was or is one of the sons of God, the author specifically places the Adversary as seperate from them. When God sees the Adversary, he says, “Where did you come from?” The Adversary replies, “From going to and fro in the land, walking up and down on it.”
Also, NOWHERE are the sons of God referred to Angels in Scripture. Such title is given to men and humanity alone.
John 1:11-13
To his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God – to those believing in his name, who – not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but – of God were begotten.
Romans 8:13-15
for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live; for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God; for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba – Father.’
Romans 8:18-20
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory about to be revealed in us; for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
My Bible (ESV) says “angels”, with a footnote of “sons of God”. Since I do not know the explicit word used here, I’m not sure. May just be Elohim, which I’m pretty sure are angels.
i think the Sons of God theory came in because of one stray verse in Genesis, which gave rise to the bizarre Nephilim theory
clearly rubbish…
i’ve heard it said that God let loose the flood BECAUSE of the Nephilim (human/angel hybrids), but first of all, it doesn’t actually say that the “Sons of God going into the daughters of men” was a bad thing…it doesn’t even imply that…and when it says there are giants, it doesn’t equate them with Nephilim either, just the idea that these children were heroes of old.
but then all this is slightly complicated by the fact that all these “hybrids” would’ve died in the flood, and yet some have said these Nephilim were the giants in Canaan, and that Goliath was one of them, even…such a massive stretch for one little verse
and if the sons of God hooking up with the dauthers of man was so bad, why are they all hanging out with God in Job? unless Job happened BEFORE Noah? as said in Father Ted “It’s all a bit mad!”
personally, i think this line of reasoning is so fraught with contradiction and myth that it must be abandoned. it’s not well enough supported in Scripture to be anything but a fairy tale. as for the devil being one of them…only if the devil is a personification of human evil could this happen even symbollically.
The sons of God refer to the sons of Seth in the 7th Generation namdic people finally came down from their mountain and began to enter the cities created by the children of Cain.
The thing that I find interesting is that the whole Job story doesn’t work very well with the Satan-as-personification-of-evil ideas. In Job, Satan is in fact a separate guy who gives God some really evil ideas, outside of any human influenced. I’ve heard that Job didn’t actually happen, though, but the whole issue of God testing Job like that rubs me the wrong way.
Great question (and one touched on before on this site) but, coming from a denomination and mindset that find it unthinkable that Satan is NOT a real and personal being, it’s rather instructive for me to lay out why I think it’s a great question. I believe that how one answers this question says an awful about his theories of sin and it’s solution. Hope you have a few minutes!!
You no doubt have heard endlessly and forever the expression “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.” And that expression does in fact carry very important meaning. But over time, I’ve become puzzled that so many also seem to require, for their salvation, a personal devil – or Satan too. What’s going on here?
And I began to wonder what the upside and the downside would be to either belief structure: what are the benefits and what are the negatives to believing Satan is “real and personal”? and what are the benefits/negatives to seeing Satan as a personification of wrong and evil?
Just in case you don’t read to the end, I’ll just state that I think important truths can be reached with either belief structure. Which is to say that I’m not convinced at all that very much hinges on this distinction – despite my upbringing and current church dogma. But I also worry most about the negatives which emerge from the belief that Satan IS a real and personal being…Let me try to explain why…
It seems fairly obvious to conclude that Satan has lost; he is defeated, somehow, and in important ways, at the cross. (lots of places assert this; esp Col 1:16-20) Thus it has become a growing puzzle to me that he engenders so much attention! Good grief! I’d think; shouldn’t the focus be on the VICTOR instead of on the vanquished? Why on earth does Satan get, or deserve so much press??!!
And, sadly, it began to dawn on me that many devout souls (which is to say “persons”) I knew were as convinced (maybe even more!) of Satan’s ability to deceive them, as in Jesus’ ability to SAVE them! And that has seemed highly improper to me and giving something/someone an emphasis that it/he simply did not deserve.
Having said that I think the story works either way (with or without a personal Satan) let me suggest why I think the story of a personal Satan is so flawed and troublesome, and dangerous …
Recall the reactions of the pair at the fall (a story which also serves useful teaching purposes read as literal or metaphoric) when confronted with their wrong actions. They turned to blame another. For Adam, he blames Eve; this woman you gave me… So it’s Eve’s fault, and God’s fault too by implication. For who but God gave Eve to Adam? Then Eve too turns and deflects the blame; behold the serpent… Not MY fault God, but the serpents…
What is this all about?? And what does Satan have to do with all of it??
Well, after reading Walter Wink, and others, like Girard, and Swager and such, it slowly comes clear that there is this irresistible urge within humans, upon being confronted with our evil, our sin, our failings, to locate the cause outside of ourselves. We seek to thereby protect ourselves from the consequences of our actions. Deflect blame; redirect; anything - ANYTHING! - but accept and internalize the real cause. For to do so risks too much; we must defend the self at all cost. And so we locate the source of our trouble, of our sin, OUTSIDE of ourselves. Out there; over there; on him - ANYWHERE but where such a thing simply cannot be allowed. On me. Right here inside. ME.
I know folks who actually believe that the sin problem is over - OVER! - the moment we get rid of Satan! Nothing wrong, really, with ME Lord! Nope, it’s HIM! Over there; HE made me do it! (Recall Flip Wilson’s taunting and devious line: “the DEVIL made me do it!”) So we lay OUR sin at the feet of SATAN. And it’s all a huge and dangerous defense mechanism. And all in defense of MY self; who must be protected at all costs. It’s a failure to grasp, or internalize, the true nature of the “sin problem”.
No, sin does not rest in them, over there, (think of how we demonize the “other” as excuse for our own behaviors…) nor in Satan - out there: it rests right here INSIDE of ME! That’s what we sinners desperately seek to tell ourselves. A scapegoat will save us. MY sin belongs over there, on him. ANYWHERE but acknowledge its true origins; deep inside of ME.
Satan then as defense mechanism to protect MYSELF from the awful truth: Sin lies INSIDE of ME; getting rid of Satan accomplishes absolutely nothing. For we are fully capable of carrying on his work in his absence. (which is the very premise of M Scott Peck’s book Glimpses of the Devil…)
Little doubt then that on the cross God is said to have defeated Satan – there can be no defense for us; for it is WE who killed the Christ. God came to us, in flesh, and we killed Him. Not another; WE DID IT. For the thread of evil runs, as Ravi Zacharias so powerfully puts it, right through EVERY heart.
Because of Christ, WE can dare to face OUR inner evil – for a solution HAS been established!
Now what becomes interesting here (and deviating slightly off topic to be sure) is that the entire penal substitution model of the Atonement depends on this very same delusional transference of blame mechanism. We transfer blame to Satan, then our sins get “transferred” to the innocent “sin bearer”, the result being that I’M OFF THE HOOK!! Except that’s a total ruse; an abject denial of my OWN culpability in the whole sin drama. Can Paul be ANY more explicit and clear about this? We are ALL sinners and ALL culpable! Evil is HERE! right inside of ME! I can no more transfer blame to Satan than I can transfer guilt to Christ.
God’s solution then is utterly brilliant Sherman!
The cross forces us to locate the evil which killed Him, INSIDE of ourselves. Satan didn’t “do it” nor can be blamed. WE did it. It’s not “poor Jesus; look what those people did to Him” – rather, it’s PERSONAL ACCEPTANCE for killing Him! But IN that death, and the WAY He dies (Father! forgive them! for they know not what they do!) we behold the solidarity of God WITH us. And we are saved the only way God can possibly ever save: by inner transformation whereby the evil WITHIN us is not denied, or ever really gone, until it is REPLACED by another inhabitant and force; our Creator Himself. (And of course this is where Universal Restoration rings SO true to us! Evil is destroyed, for all time, by the transformation of EVERY sinner! There simply IS not another comprehensive solution…)
God HEALS us and CHANGES us and TRANSFORMS us to His glory. Satan is a diversion, and excuse, a way of hiding from the awful - but saving truth. For WE are, in truth, “Satan” – whether another who bears his name exists or not. IF he does, we are so thoroughly his deputies that his actual presence is unnecessary.
My personal belief is that words used on Satan are wasted; for they are words used to speak of a defeated enemy and should instead be spent lavishing praise on the ONE who saves us; asks to live inside us; yes, even on the Christ…
… and just wondering Sherman, how YOU are putting all this together??!!
Excellent food for thought, all. I’m going to admit that the more I go along, the less inclined I am to believe in a personal satan.
Here’s where the gloves really come off; Jesus was tempted in all ways (in the same manner; led away and enticed by our own lust!) as we are and yet was without sin. Which means he was human enough (entirely!) to have a satan within himself to do the tempting, yet he overcame it…
Whenever this discussion comes up, I’m reminded of the scene in the Lord of the Rings film where Gollum is having that fight of conscience with himself…I get goosebumps every time I see that scene.
Your arrows hit the bullseye so many times I can only pick out a few things to comment on:
Not knowing your personal history, I’m presuming this is some sort of ECT-believing denomination? Because it’s my theory that the harder you believe in ECT, the harder you’re likely to believe in a wholly personal Satan - and perhaps, to a lesser extent, vice versa (bit of a generalisation, obviously).
He deserves little or none, in my book. Except, of course, that I believe that ‘evil’ - the forces of evil, however you view them (and for me that includes my own personal sin, failure, weakness, call it what you will) - *are *real, and do need to be guarded and fought against. But we don’t do that by, as you explain, ascribing everything bad in us to Satan.
I am reminded of a song by an old mate of mine, who records under the name John Wesley Harding, called The Devil in Me. One verse includes the lyric:
You can call me by my real name
Or you can call me humanity
Because it all seems just like human behaviour
It all seems like human behaviour to me
Put it down to the devil in me
And everything you say about PSA is spot on, I’d say.
And Melchizedek, good shout about Gollum. As I’m sure you know, the whole of *Lord of the Rings *can be read as Christian allegory, so perhaps Tolkien *intended *him to represent the ‘devil’ in all of us?
I would like to use your words to demonstrate what I believe concerning the matter as you ask and ponder with clarity many things in that post.
That is because Satan is not a Fallen Angel [Celestial] and for him to be defeated by the ‘cross’ makes this particular Satan to be defined very clearly. Satan means Adversary and what adversarial thing was defeated by the cross?
Galatians 3:12-14
The Law is not by faith, but – `The man who did them shall live in them.’
Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, `Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,’ that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
What was defeated on the cross? Well it was the curse of the law. Now the curse and the Law are not separated they are one and the same. The law is the curse and it is the Adversary that had set itself against God’s Children.
Romans 6:5-7
For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again; this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
Need more context? Let’s continue in Romans 7
Romans 7:1-6
Are ye ignorant, brethren – for to those knowing law I speak – that the law hath lordship over the man as long as he liveth? For the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband; so, then, the husband being alive, an adulteress she shall be called if she may become another man’s; and if the husband may die, she is free from the law, so as not to be an adulteress, having become another man’s.
So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another’s, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God; for when we were in the flesh, the passions of the sins, that [are] through the law, were working in our members, to bear fruit to the death; and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.
Verse 24-25
A wretched man I [am]! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? I thank God – through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.
So there are two laws, one is the Law of God and the other is the law of sin. Who is Satan? It is the law of sin. The cross did not deliver us from God’s Law but the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:1
There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death.
Two Laws, the Law of Life (the Law of God) and the law of sin and death (the law of sin).
1 Corinthians 15:55-57
Where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?’ and the sting of the death [is] the sin, and the power of the sin the law; and to God – thanks, to Him who is giving us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ; so that, my brethren beloved, become ye stedfast, unmovable, abounding in the work of the Lord at all times, knowing that your labour is not vain in the Lord.
What is the adversary? It is the law of sin and death. A law in which none of us are judged any longer. The Adversary is defeated because it has no power. Satan is the same word for Adversary.
The law still deceives people to believe it still has power, it still tries to assert it’s authority over the Children of God. The ‘religion’ of Christianity for the most part is not talking about the Law of Life (that is the Gospel we bear and why Christianity rejects us for the most part) but the law of sin and death. There is indeed many who are set free, still in bondage by deception.
Galatians 5:1-8
In the freedom, then, with which Christ did make you free – stand ye, and be not held fast again by a yoke of servitude; lo, I Paul do say to you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing; and I testify again to every man circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law; ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away; for we by the Spirit, by faith, a hope of righteousness do wait for, for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith through love working. Ye were running well; who did hinder you – not to obey the truth? the obedience [is] not of him who is calling you!
The law of sin and death requires works, and there are many who continue to ‘work’ under the law. As we further study what this law was which is Satan, we recognize it to be the Hebrew religion, of which many still hold on to a part of it. The 10 Commandments is part of that law, the moral, kosher and ceremional commands are all part of that law but also every thing a man sets up against the Truth is also part of that law for even those who were not under the Law of Moses were still submitting to the law of sin and death.
Romans 2:14
For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law – to themselves are a law;
Galations 5:16-18
And I say: In the Spirit walk ye, and the desire of the flesh ye may not complete;for the flesh doth desire contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit contrary to the flesh, and these are opposed one to another, that the things that ye may will – these ye may not do; and if by the Spirit ye are led, ye are not under law.
We can definitely say now that there are two laws at work, one is the Law of God (which is also called the Law of Life in Christ, the Law of Freedom, the Law of Liberty, etc.) and the law of sin (which is also called the Law of Moses, the law, the law of sin and death, etc.) So who and what is Satan but that which stands in opposition to the Law of God. It is the law which enslaves and puts them into bondage. It is not an external thing but rather something that is very close. As Paul said, the flesh servers the law of sin.
Colossians 2:18-23
Let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and [in] worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, and not holding the head, from which all the body – through the joints and bands gathering supply, and being knit together – may increase with the increase of God.
If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?-- thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle --which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men, which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body – not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh.
Which leads us to who the serpent was in the Garden and the first lie which led to the woman being decieved.
Genesis 3:2-3
And the woman saith unto the serpent, `Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat, and of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it,** nor touch it,** lest ye die.’
From the commands and teachings of men came what seemed to be an innocent command to protect their lives was but not one given by God, "nor touch it. "
Remember, such commands do nothing to satisfy the flesh, and in fact give power to sin to live and the Adversary appeared and deceived because of that command, she died.
Romans 7:9-11
And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died; and the command that [is] for life, this was found by me for death; for the sin, having received an opportunity, through the command, did deceive me, and through it did slay [me].
She touched it, and did not die and so the second lie “You shall not die” because her truth and she ate of the tree and died. Adam was there.
From the Scriptures I can show you exactly what Satan is and who it is and what it does and Satan is only defeated if you no longer continue to serve him. We choose to follow the Spirit or we chose to follow the flesh. Each has their own law but only one triumphs because the other is just trying to deceive us to think it has power.
I still maintain the possiblility of an person of satan, but lean heavily in the other direction.
AUniversalist, your last post is very close to what I’ve been seeing but unable to put into words fully.
To TV’s post I’d like to add that in the same way people want to blame a satan out there, people are looking for a Jesus and God out there.
Luke 17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Heres the parallel in Matthew
24: 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Please take another look ar Revelation 12:9: “The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” NIV
Another important point in this discussion is interpreting the role of the devil in Christ’s desert temptations. I have a hard time toying with the idea that the devil in Matthew 4:1-11 and Luke 4:1-13 is a mere personification of evil.
Does anybody suggest that Christ merely struggled with his own dark side during the desert temptations?
Also, Do Christians who see the devil as a mere personification of evil also reject belief in good heavenly angels who are real persons instead of mere personifications of good?
here here 
