The Evangelical Universalist Forum

scriptures that refute inclusionism. Here are fifty:

Passing back through quickly tonight… (with crappy eyes from the exam, argh)

Yeah I think he must be aiming against some kind of religious relativism, not really against us except by a radical misunderstanding.

Similarly, to be fair to unitarians, the UU church isn’t really unitarian either anymore. :wink: Doctrinal unitarian Christians, of whatever particular flavor, are quite religiously different.

He doesn’t sound like someone who’s going to give enough of a real poot about fairness and the truth to distinguish, though, even if he thinks we’re still wrong. :unamused:

Speaking of being fair, I’m worried that I still haven’t gotten a good handle on his soteriological category, whether broadly Arm or Calv. It doesn’t help that I’ll sometimes find Arms going practically Calv, and Calvs going practically Arm, temporarily of course, in order to try to defend some flavor of final unrighteousness – but I can’t really tell for sure yet, despite my (probably over-hasty) reply earlier today, whether he’s being consistently one or the other, or whether he’s usually one but bringing in the other where he thinks that works better for the moment. Anyway, I should be less critical about his own beliefs because I don’t feel confident I’ve got them fairly right yet. :neutral_face: :confused:

Here is a man who cannot distinguish between universalism and incluslivism. He holds to all the standard arguments against what he considers to be a horrible, unbiblical doctrine:

preachthecross.net/is-universali … ble-based/

escapetoreality.org/2014/08/01/c … bout-hell/

From the link above I believe that he comes from CI (Conditional Immortality) point of view.

He says:

"Death, or more specifically, the Second Death. We’ve been told that our souls are immortal, but Jesus never said this. In John 3:16 he gives us two choices and only one of them leads to eternal life. He also said that he who believes has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24)…

There are nearly two dozen scriptures in the New Testament that talk about hell and the majority of them – like 80% – indicate a final death for those who refuse life. On top of that there are many passages that don’t mention hell but refer to fatal consequences, such as this one: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life” (John 3:36). Two outcomes; you either have eternal life or you will not see life…

I don’t believe God is the instrument of death. People do it to themselves. God didn’t kill Adam; Adam killed Adam. Because of Jesus we all get the same choice Adam had. Tragically, some people make the same choice Adam did…

We were made in God’s image. Define yourself as something less than a dearly-loved child of God and you diminish yourself. You opt for an inferior reality, one defined by limits and fear. The Bible teaches that when we live apart from God we become enslaved to our appetites and anxieties (Eph 4:18-19, Tit 3:3). It’s a degenerative path that leads nowhere good."- Paul Ellis

Thanks all for your input.

I actually had difficulty with Rob Bell’s book, until I was introduced to an Axis framework. Dr. Timothy Dalrymple has a degree with majors in Philosophy and Religious Studies at Stanford University, an M.Div. at Princeton Theological Seminary, and a Ph.D. in Religion at Harvard’s Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. He has also studied at Oxford and two universities in China. He does a great analysis of A Framework for Understanding the Rob Bell Controversy. This is very interesting and has gotten me to reflect. Perhaps it might be helpful here?