Hello all:
Been quiet for awhile (various reasons) but have been pondering this topic…
here goes…
and not quite sure this is the best location for this…
Bobx3
Self Interest: Source of Evil & Salvation??
There’s a bit of a contradiction, maybe a pardox, perhaps irony lurking in our consideration of the notion of “self interest”. It is that “thing”, that “force”, which causes us to go our own way; away from God. Self interest separates us from God we might say. However, at the same time, we also must somehow claim that our self interest – properly directed, properly informed, properly released – plays a vital role in responding to God’s Grace!
It seems to me an exploration of this topic could be worthwhile – especially as in it, I believe, yet another avenue to grasping God’s intentions for Universal Reconciliation.
I’d be very curious to know how you all might view all of this.
Anyway, I’ll try to expand…
Sin we say, at it’s core, is selfishness. All about “me”. Doesn’t see the need for God, maybe doesn’t even want God. And so we “go our own way”. Apart from, maybe even against, God. And the amazing thing is God, at least it sure seems so, “lets” us do this.
In the back of our minds however, there lurks this warning: sin, and you will die. (I think that was the meaning and intent of the words spoken by God in our story of the garden…)
Now for a moment we can step back and wonder about this. If life comes from God, and life is not possible apart from God, then the current and apparent fact that there remain many who literally do claim their disdain for God and their intentions to have nothing to do with Him, remain very alive and even well. That’s at least a potential problem as it might appear that
A) God was lying; and/or -
B) Life really is possible apart from God, and He has hidden this reality from us;
However, there is another possibility. Perhaps God has temporarily suspended the “rules” of this great cause-and-effect (ie connection with Him is the only possible way life exists) in order to effect His purposes…
Switching now to another view of the issue…
There are those who hold to the idea that God would truly like to save all (ie keep all alive to enjoy His companionship for all eternity) but cannot realize/accomplish this because He is thwarted by our human choice; our so called “free will”. So we have the idea (eg CS Lewis) that the “gates/doors of hell are locked from the inside” sort of thing. Add to this the silly notion (well I find it silly I guess) that God “gives us what we desire”.
Thus we face the really odd spectacle of a very large group of people who, because of their slavish pursuit of self interest, actually want (or so the telling goes) to be in ECT hell or be terminated (annihilation) and be “as if they never were”. More than odd though, the notion that someones “self interest” would desire such awful/unpleasant/painful/tragic outcomes for themselves is actually absurd. Clearly we would be dealing with monumental/colossal distortions of perception and reality where such results could be viewed as “in the best interest” of that person.
How then did we ever arrive at the place where we say that God lets us “chose” what is “best” for us when in reality that “best” is actually nothing of the sort?? It is, rather, what is WORST for us! Should we discover a person claiming (and acting as if) a thing is best for himself when in reality it is the worst, the LAST thing to enter our minds as diagnosis would be that freedom is here at work! To call the act – the “choice” – of self-destruction (for that’s what sin is) “self interest” is to strip language of all meaning.
In “Mere Christianity” CS Lewis (in a slightly different context; he’s talking of the Atonement and the importance of the Incarnation) says this on p 60:
He goes on to elaborate on how the only way this is conceivably possible is if God does this in us, and for us. The idea being that, because of sin, even the desire and the will for saving come from God – not from within us. (Do I recall correctly that Jason has speculated that, had CS Lewis lived just a bit longer, he likely would have come to accept UR???)
Which is to say, I’m suggesting, that we are able to respond to God’s grace ONLY when God gives us the ability to recognize and wish for and embrace what is, in effect our true self interest. This talk of sin as being all about our acting in “self interest” then is all wrong: for sin is anything BUT self interest; it is self destruction. God comes to us, through Christ, His life and death and resurrection, to restore our capacity FOR understanding, grasping, and acting in what is actually true self interest.
Which brings me to another odd assertion often made by the God’s-respect-for-our-free-will-means-He’s-bound-by-my-choices crowd. It is said, of love, that unless it is given freely, it is “the love of a robot”. And God will not accept the love of a robot since really, it can’t be said to be love at all. But if I’m right in what I’m asserting here (or trying to assert; I’m sure it can be said better…) this has things completely backwards. Robots are unable to think/act in terms of self interest – true “self” interest. Which is precisely the state we find ourselves in as sinners. Thus the condition of being a robot, or robot like, is the one we are in NOW – as sinners! And the bible’s picture of this condition is quite vivid and clear. It is called bondage; we are slaves – prisoners – to sin. Robots for sin maybe.
Program a robot to self destruct by marching itself off a cliff and it will do so. Not unlike robots, we shall do the same if unhindered by the saving interventions of God. For our marching off a cliff to our destruction (or, marching into ECT hell) is an utterly irrational thing to do; the very same lack of rationality on display with robots. And this irrationality is the opposite of freedom.
So yes; it’s true that God will not accept the “love” of a robot. Which is precisely why He unilaterally extracts us from our predicament – from our robot like state – so that our love can be “freely given”. His task is to free us so that our self interest can be properly identified, and properly acted upon. And wonder of wonders, when we come to discern what our true self interest is, we discover it is identical to what God desires for us all along!
And the fact of the matter is that when God does this on our behalf, He is not violating our freedom at all; rather, He is insisting on it! But if God insists on freedom for some, surely His insistence applies to everyone. The more one rejects (or attempts to reject) that freedom, the better the evidence that God’s diagnosis is correct and He is even more justified in going to the lengths He does to return us to our planned place in His creation. Fully knowing what our self interest is, and fully willing and able to pursue it. And all to His glory.
And when that happens, it looks just like …
… Universal Reconciliation!!!
How do you see this??
The robot analogy is excellent and, really, the argument brings to mind some of Tom Talbott’s (And I, for one, think his are the most coherent and plausible regarding ‘free-will’, grace and universal reconciliation)