The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Should we form universalist congregations?


#181

Thank you very much. :slight_smile:


#182

Paidion and I disagree on quite a lot of issues.* I would not say, however, that he needs to “grow up”. He reminds me so much of George MacDonald that I hate it when I have to disagree with him. He is the better man.

*At the same time I learn a great deal from him. His translations of the Greek words (which are typically translated as “eternal” and as “punishment”) as “lasting” and as “correction” have given me great light and joy. I can never repay him for that.


#183

They use wine and unleavened bread. Here is the reasoning:

In the New Testament, leaven (yeast) was considered to be a symbol of evil or falsehood.

"How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Matt 16:11,12)

So we use unleavened bread to symbolize the Bread of Life (Jesus) in whom is no evil or falsity.
Similarly we use unleavened wine. Wine symbolizes the blood of Christ which is pure and gives life. In the preparation of wine, all yeast settles to the bottom as dregs, and the pure unleavened wine is skimmed off the top. Grape juice contains yeast cells that has fallen into it from the air.

I must point out, that we don’t consider the communion to be only symbolic, but also to be a sacrament (a means of grace).


#184

Well… it is the Greek word “μετανοια” (metanoia) that is translated as “repentance.”
The word is made up of the prefix “μετα” (meta) which often means “change” and “νους” (nous) which means “mind.”
In English, “metamorphosis” (derived from Greek) means “change of form.” For example, it applies to a caterpillar changing into a butterfly.
The Online Bible Program defines “μετανοια” as “a change of mind.” So does the NASB Greek lexicon. So does the G.Abbott-Smith lexicon.
Strongs Greek lexicon defines the verbal form as “to think differently.”
Louw & Nida define the verbal form as “To change one’s way of life as a result of a complete change of thought and attitude with regard to sin and righteousness.”

So are all these experts (some of whom have doctorate degrees) all wrong, while you, MM, are right?
Do they all need to “grow up” whereas you are the only mature one who understands Christ’s use of the word?


#185

I think this quote above shines a good bit of light as to HOW things are handled in evangelical thought. Repentance IS unquestionably linked “with regard to sin and righteousness” – BUT NOT exclusively so, and the problem is, as I see it… “repentance” is NOT the sole property of “sin and righteousness”. Even in both Testaments sometimes the injunction to ‘repent’ is in regard to sparing one’s self from impending destruction and that a change of mind leading to changed behaviour would avoid certain calamity; and this quite apart from the notion of “repenting from sin/s” etc. Here’s a good example:

In this instance their potential to “perish” has nothing to do with sin per se but rather, their stubborn-mindedness (Mt 27:25) in refusing to hear Israel’s prophet i.e., Jesus, and consequently the price they would come to pay for not heeding his warnings… and thus change their minds (repent) and live.


#186

I read somewhere in N.t. Wright that the word ‘repent’ was used in a secular sense, when a conqueror would implore the conquered to 'repent, and trust in me". The connotation was obviously not related to moral sin as such.


#187

I agree, Davo, that “with regard to sin and righteousness” is not actually a part of the definition (though examples of “repentance” often involve a change of mind concerning sin). The essence of the meaning is “a change of mind.” I like to define it as “a change of heart and mind” (though I admit that “a change of heart” is not actually part of the meaning.)


#188

That’s interesting Dave and certainly fits with Wright’s notion that “Jesus is Lord” as opposed to “Caesar is Lord” as being a political statement. This is kind of backed up by this interesting quote on Acts 4:12

Found HERE.


#189

I don’t know Paidion, I don’t think that’s an unreasonable reading because any significant (genuine) “change of mind” is going to affect a “change of heart” which can only be seen in its accordant “change of behaviour” – secular or religious for that matter.


#190

I’m considering an Anglican church now. According to Randy they have open communion. What do you think of them?


#191

The key there qaz, is **not **what others think - what do you think? And the only way you can have an informed opinion - regarding a church - is to visit it (i.e. ask questions, observe, listen, watch, etc.).


#192

My understanding of ‘change of heart’ is in part inspired by J B Phillips rendering of the word. He maintained that from his perspective, the heart is where conviction lies within us. :smiley:


#193

I would look for what is called a “Continuing Anglican church”:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuin … n_movement

In short, the Continuing Anglicans have continued with the faith of C. S. Lewis.

The mainstream Anglican church, in contrast, has become the Church of Anything Goes. I do not think they have excommunicated anyone since before I was born. (I’m 46 years old.) Amongst other things they have:

bishops who deny that Jesus Christ rose from the dead
priestesses
widespread acceptance of abortion, homosexuality, fornication, divorce, etc.
widespread acceptance of every theological deviance you can imagine (denial of the Virgin Birth, denial of the deity of Christ, etc.)

Out of all the western forms of Christianity, historic Anglicanism is the closest to Orthodoxy. As such, I am deeply distressed by the deep inroads of rank heresy within the church that C. S. Lewis and George MacDonald used to attend. At least the Continuing Anglicans are keeping the torch alight.


#194

I am an Anglo-Orthodox Traditionalist (AKA Anglo-Catholic and Continuing Anglican movement, with an Eastern Orthodox twist). That’s the one I like. In the words of Wiki: :smiley:


#195

Holy Fool, a few questions for you:

  1. Do you attend a Continuing Anglican parish? Are these parishes very easy to find, or are they somewhat rare?

  2. What are your beliefs regarding the veneration of the Theotokos, the saints, and the orders of angels?


#196

Do you guys have any Anglo Continuing resources, like a list of churches?


#197

Wasn’t it a Congregational church that George MacDonald used to attend, and from which he was forced to resign as pastor by lowering his salary to the point that he could not live from it?


#198

Yes. The Anglican Church I go to, is under the umbrella of The Anglican Church in North America. Their website is anglicanchurch.net/ and there is a link, to find a church. You can find more about them on Wiki at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_Church_in_North_America.


#199

Yes. Later in life he attended the Anglican Church.


#200

Well a 3 hour drive is a bit much every Sunday morning, dagnab it.