The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Simple but lovely thought

Evangelical Universalism
#1

Hi everyone - Just wanted to share something I come across twice now, once in a Philip Gulley book and once in a Philip Yancey book. Basically, the question posed to each was “if God saves everyone” (to Gulley) and “if anyone can be saved just through faith alone and forgiveness” (to Yancey) then what is the incentive to do good, and follow God?

Both had very similar answers - basically LOVE! Both said, when you know God and love God, you strive to be more like Him - you dont always succeed, but your love of Him makes you want to follow his commands. You want to imitate how God has loved us, and you want to be a part of the Kingdom on Earth. Its not fear or threat, its Love that leads to true obedience.

This is probably an idea you all have thought about before, but im a bit of a newbie at all this, and it just delighted me!

#2

Amen!

I would like to expand on this but my wife just told me it’s way past my bed time :astonished: (closest smilie to a yawn)

#3

Yeah – we talked about it recently on this thread…


you will find some interesting thoughts there zaida.

Another aspect of this “problem” that really bugs me is the underlying assumption that God must either annihilate or have ECT in order to “prove” He’s serious about sin. As if we must have some dead or suffering bodies about to show how serious it all is…

That’s absurd though isn’t it?? To me, that God WILL heal this sin sickness is proof of how seriously He takes sin!
How serious is sin? So serious that He will, and has, gone to infinite length to heal us.
Leaving a trail of dead or suffering bodies is only how an earthly tyrant would handle threats to his authority. But God is much more than just an earthly king or common tyrant.

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#4

That got me thinking about the similarity between “true obedience” and “being subjected” to God. I don’t think you can have “true obedience”, compliance or submission, if in the back of the person’s mind they are fearful, rebellious or cursing. Outwardly to us it might look like obedience or submission but inwardly it’s far from it and I reckon, that’s what God is most concerned about.

#5

To echo and elaborate on Bobx3:

If you want to see eternal wrath… if you want to see eternal punishment and suffering … If you want to see how ugly and serious sin is … and if you want to see JUSTICE … you need look no further than … the cross! THE CROSS!

#6

On a similar thought, I’ve been asked lately what is the advantage of being a Christian. I’ve come to this conclusion, the advantage is having Peace with God, gives me peace with my self and peace with others. Outside this I can’t think of any other advantage. Can you? I’d like to hear them.

#7

I prefer to think in terms of truth, not of advantage, in being a Christian.

Maybe the question is what advantages there would be if Christianity is true, compared to other religious (or anti-religious) beliefs?

I might have several long answers to that. :wink:

#8

We can go with that. I need something good to read.

I’m now really sure how to tie truth and advantage together? Seem to be talking about two different things. I would think in these terms: what is the advantage of having the truth of Christianity as opposed to having Islam as my thuth? I think we can rule out morality, and the lack of hardships in ones life. Both of which I was promised if I was a good Christian and neither of which seems to be true. I see good moral people in all religions and I see lots of Christians getting the crapped getting kicked out of them.

#9

Hi nimblewill,

I think the benefit of the truth of Christianity is the assurance, that while we are lost, we have one, who’s justice involves reconciling us, that never gives up on us and truly loves us. We can trust God. This, as you suggest, brings great peace and hope, as well as a love for others because we know that God also loves them and is equally committed to their welfare.

Whenever the Mormons come to our door they want to talk. So we inevitably invite them in and it usually goes for weeks.We compare notes on the God we each believe in. We see a God, as revealed in Jesus, that seeks our welfare even as we are hostile to him and that really loves. Even though there may be consequences for wrong doing (which how wonderful God takes sin seriously and addresses it), he always acts in love. We’ve decided we wouldn’t trade our God in for anything!

The benefit to our God is the hope that he’s not all about himself, it’s not ultimately our will, but his, he never allows irreparable harm ( because he faithfully seeks to heal us). I suppose there are versions of Christianity that aren’t able to assert these. It’s harder now for me to see outside the wonderful bubble I am in. I have new glasses and hope for the reconciliation of all is alive!

#10

I think the advantage is tied to responsibility. Having had the original oracles of God Israel had less excuse for their sin than the pagan who had not had their advantage. The same holds for the Christian. I don’t think it applies to material advatage but moral responsibility (or culpability). It behooves the Christian to bring in the rest of the harvest.

If I have been brought up to have impeccible table manners, then at a dinner with others who have not, I would be admonished more for my infractions at the table than those who had not had the advantage of my upbringing.

#11

JeffA, your idea that we are more accountable and have responsibility made me think of this verse.

In so far as all of us are followers of Christ, have experienced the goodness of God, it seems like a natural consequence that we would love others the way God does and that this is God’s goal for us.

#12

That’s a perfect example Amy.

#13

Amy, I appreciate your response but would ask what is the difference between a Christian who has assurance and a non-Christian who believes that they will go to heaven because they are basically a “good person?”

#14

There is at least one big difference between anyone (Christian or non-Christian) who believes they will go to heaven because they are basically a good person, and anyone (Christian or non-Christian) who believes they will go to heaven because God is a good God.

The first category of person is putting their faith first and foremost in themselves. The second category is putting their faith first and foremost in God (even if they recognize their own behavior as being a contributing component, e.g. “I believe I will go to heaven because God is good and wouldn’t condemn someone who is basically a good person like myself.” I would say that person still has some growing to do, maybe a lot of growing :wink: , but at least they’re on the right track.)

#15

Meanwhile, are you (Nimble) asking what the advantages are if Christianity is true compared to if Islam is true? Or are you asking what the advantages are for believing Christianity to be true compared to believing Islam is true? The latter question will be logically dependent on the question of what is actually true, so there are a lot more options and possibilities to consider.

I can answer the first question pretty straightforwardly, though: my confidence in eventual salvation, especially salvation from sin, is highest if Christianity is true.

I detailed out why I should be most confident of salvation if Christianity is true, compared to other beliefs, in a formal argument here.

#16

I am asking how is life better for a Christian than a non-Christian.

Let me give some examples

  1. as a Christian sometimes my prayers seem to be answered, sometimes they aren’t

  2. as Muslims, sometimes their prayers seem to be answered, sometimes they aren’t

  3. As a Christian I have loved ones that die way too early

  4. So do Athiests

  5. As a Christian sometimes there’s plenty, sometimes there’s famine

  6. Same of non-Christians

Maybe, I’m asking what the benefits are to being a believer in Christ, in this life.

I just don’t see how our lives are better than anyone else’s. Now it used to be that I had the promise of heaven and everyone else was going to hell. But now that I am questioning that I just don’t see any advantage to being a Christian.

I really do but want to know what you folks think. :smiley:

#17

Yes, we can list a considerable number of ways in which Christians (disciples of Christ) are similar to non-Christians.

Even in terms of altruism, we find many non-Christians have a genuine desire to help and serve others in various ways.
However, Christians are able to do this in a more consistent way because of the enabling grace of God, made available through the sacrifice of Christ. In the New Testament, this is given as the essential purpose of the death of Christ:

*I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
*

#18

Ok, I’m going to step out onto a limb and give you my honest opinion that isn’t very politically correct :astonished:

I think that God’s way, in particular true Christlikeness, overall leads to a better culture and society. A lot of Western nations are spoilt by their Christian heritage, and take for granted that principles of Truth, Freedom, Equality, Justice and Welfare are deeply ingrained into the way things are done. Now it’s far from perfect, particularly as we all don’t live up to God’s standards, however, it’s better than cultures that are completely devoid of God and His principles. I’m confident that a completely Atheistic society would not be nice to live in :open_mouth:

Furthermore, for women in particular, living in a Muslim country would not be as nice. For example, according to Sharia Law their testomey is only worth half that of a man, so you can imagine how this effects their rights and justice :frowning:

There are still good things in other cultures and societies because God, in His great mercy, has blessed many people, in many places, in many different ways :slight_smile:

I think this even extends, to some degree at least, back to Israel in the OT. I think that overall, it would’ve been nicer to be a guest in Israel, than say a guest in Philistine :confused:

From a different perspective, life is better for a Christian because they don’t have to continually feel guilty and inadequate for not being able to please the god/gods/ancestors! By God’s grace, we don’t have to earn our way to heaven. This is a huge relief, obeying God because we love him not because we fear Hell or bad luck in this life :sunglasses:

After all, Jesus claimed to be the Way, the Truth and the Life, now and forever more!

#19

I don’t see the New Testament teaching anywhere that your material life will be any better than anyone else’s; after all it teaches that God sends the rain on the unjust as well as the just. The advantages you have are:

You are reconciled to God.
You are set free by the truth.
You are dying daily to self.
You are a new creation.
If you overcome to the end then you just might be a ruler in the kingdom and not merely a subject.
Jesus and his father have made their dwelling in you.

how much more do you want… Job has a fair bit to say about evils in this present life I believe :wink:

#20

Nimblewill, I was not meaning to ignore your question. For some reason I’m only seeing it now. I like all the answers everybody gives. I think Jason Pratt explains, very well, the difference between a believer that has faith in Jesus vs. someone who has faith in their own deeds. Tomorrow, I want to read more closely when I’m not so tired.

It’s an interesting question, “How is life better for Christians?” JeffA makes a good point that in this life we are not promised things will go smoothly. I feel just about certain nothing about this life was meant to be peaches and cream. I do find the hope of heaven and a God that is faithful to be extremely comforting. I don’t know how that’s not a huge benefit? Though, my sister seems completely content to live without this assurance. Even if it were true, which she thinks would be great, she couldn’t be sure enough of it to have that kind of hope. It means something to me that Jesus died that we might have hope in the resurrection and a life with Him.

Going to think about this some more, after I get some sleep.