The Evangelical Universalist Forum

SNIPPETS FROM MY HARD COPY UR LIBRARY


#2341

THE MANY

Some ask, Why does it say “the many” instead of “all” in Roman 5:19?

This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with “the many.”

We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus “the many” equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus “the many” equals all mankind made righteous.

That “the one” plus “the many” made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.

Even so, “the One” plus “the many” made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.


#2342

The meaning of words that have been translated as “eternal”, “forever”, “incurable” in the scriptures

Sodom’s fiery judgment is “eternal” (Jude
7)–until–God “will restore the fortunes of Sodom”
Ez. 16:53-55).

Israel’s “affliction is incurable” (Jer.
30:12)-until–the Lord “will restore health” and heal
her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria “is incurable” (Mic. 1:9)-until–
Lord “will restore … the fortunes of Samaria.” (Ez.
16:53).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the
Lord’s congregation “forever”-until–the tenth
generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were
“everlasting”, that is -until-- they “were shattered”
Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an “everlasting”
priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was
superseded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews
7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God
would dwell in Solomon’s Temple “forever” (1 Kings
8:13), that is,–until the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an “everlasting covenant”
(Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the
first was “done away” and “abolished” (2 Corinthians
3:11,13), and God “made the first old” (Hebrews 8:13).

God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah
“forever”-until–the Lord delivers him from the large
fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will “rise no more” (Jer.
25:27)-until–the Lord will “restore the fortunes of
Egypt” (Ez. 29:14) and “restore the fortunes of Elam”
(Jer. 49:39).

“Moab is destroyed” (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until–the Lord
“will restore the fortunes of Moab” (Jer. 48:47).

Israel’s judgment lasts “forever”-until–the Spirit is
poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it-until–
His church confiscates the “strong man’s” booty,
setting the captives free so God becomes all in all
(Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor.
15:24-28).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us
that a bondslave was to serve his master “forever”
(Exodus 21:6), that is,–until–his death.


#2343

A snippet from THE MILLENNIAL AGE
We have seen that the Millennial age with all its glory is filled with judgment and with an iron rule; and that notwithstanding its unspeakable blessings and Israel’s preeminence, it is far from a perfect state. It can not be the final age. The final age must come with the New Heavens and the New Earth “wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
THE MILLENIAL AGE
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_eternal/ch7millenial_age.html


#2344

SOMETHING TO PONDER

THE NEW BIRTH CONTRASTED WITH THE NEW CREATION


#2345

THE OFFER - Kenneth Larsen

Perhaps it’s ill-conceived

The “Offer” – Kenneth Larsen

Imagine this scenario. An automobile manufacturer builds a vehicle
model which it hopes will become a great success. During testing,
however, it becomes apparent that the car suffers from a severe design
flaw and would pose an imminent danger to the public were it released
for sale. Instead of correcting the flaw, the manufacturer decides it
has a better idea; it mentions the flaw on page 122 of the owner’s
manual and explains there how the owner can have the defect corrected
at the nearest dealership “free of charge”.

Does it appear rather lopsided that the vehicle is sold to
unsuspecting customers with little if any mention of the design
defect? Does it appear rather absurd that the responsibility for
discovering the dangerous defect and having it corrected falls upon
the buyer, when the builder could have fixed the problem before taking
the car to market?

Imagine this scenario. Because of the sin of our forefather, Adam, we
all inherit sin and mortality. None of us are tested as he was, in
order to see if we will be a righteous person or a sinner; we are all
given mortality. Our choices have nothing to do with our present
condition as sinners; we are born that way.
As for salvation from sin and death, that will depend on finding the
proper message and acting on it in an effective manner; otherwise the
condition we inherit at birth will be our everlasting downfall.

Does it appear rather lopsided that the condemnation is universal and
our choice has nothing to do with it, but our salvation from that
condemnation requires our active participation? Does it appear rather
absurd that the responsibility for obtaining salvation depends, in the
final analysis, upon each individual, while we are in no way
responsibe for our needing that salvation in the first place? Doesn’t
it seem strange that perdition is an inherited condition, while
salvation is only an “offer” made to those fortunate enough to stumble
upon it?

Fact is, salvation is not an offer we happen upon; it’s a gift. And a
Savior is One Who saves. In 1 Timothy 4:9-11, we read, “Faithful is
the saying and worthy of all welcome (for for this are we toiling and
being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour
of all mankind, especially of believers. These things be charging and
teaching.” God is the Savior of all mankind, for salvation is the
destiny of all. 1 Cor. 15:20-28; 1 Tim. 4:10; Jn. 12:32; Col. 1:20;
Eph. 1:10; Ro. 5:18, 19; Phil. 2:9-11. God is the Savior of believers
especially because He prefers some from the beginning for salvation
now and during the eons of the eons (2 Thes. 2:13; Rev. 20:4, 5).
Others are vessels of indignation, as indicated in Romans 9, and will
not be saved until the consummation mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:24.
Salvation is not an “offer”; God enlightens all, at the time He
chooses. John 1:9-13.


#2346

A snippet from THE PRESENCE – Walter Lanyon

Do you feel the’ Presence and understand what it is to recognize for a moment
that nothing----no, not anything -----is to be destroyed, but everything is to be fulfilled with the Love of God which only has to be recognized to change the imagination and shatter the belief that held it into its outline of ugliness?

Formerly we went out to battle with the thing called evil ----now we have reduced it to the vacuum of belief in the absence of God. No matter how rampant it may be, and how destructive in its manifestation, or how terrible in its dimensions----it is in the final analysis the absence of God, and this absence of God can only exist in the imagination,
for God is omnipresent.

“I come not to destroy but to fulfill” will thrill you and relieve you of all the hateful warfare with evil that has been going on------it will bring you to a true understanding of
the non-resistance of the Christ Mind within you and make you understand the height and depth and majesty of this Presence.

It is wonderful-----it is glorious------it causes the Hosannas to rise from the very centre
of your being and magnify the Lord of Lords and Host of Hosts.


#2347

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html

The best writing on the subject that I have read.


#2348

THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD

“This is, indeed, the Christ, the Savior of the world.” John 4:42

First, Christ died for all mankind. Under this proposition consider
the language recorded in the nineteenth chapter of the Gospel of Luke,
tenth verse:
“For the son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
John 4:34:—“Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him
that sent me, and to finish his work.” Hebrews 2:9:—“He tasted death
for every man.”

Secondly, under this proposition, Jesus Christ was endowed and
possessed power to do everything that he undertook to do:
John 17:2:—“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he
should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” Matthew
28:18:—“And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, All power is given
unto me in heaven and in earth.”
Thus, he came to save all, has sufficient power to save all, and,
thirdly, he will succeed in saving all, which I demonstrate from
Isaiah 53:10-11:
“The pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of
the travail of his soul, and be SATISFIED.”
Now, …inasmuch as Jesus came to accomplish the salvation of the entire
human family, he never would be satisfied if he were defeated. If any
of you undertake an enterprise, and get beaten, you never can say you
are satisfied. Our Lord is to “see of the travail of his soul, and be
satisfied.” Inasmuch as he came for the purpose of accomplishing
universal redemption, it is demonstrated that he will succeed, because
he will ultimately be satisfied.
The apostle John says:—“The Father loveth the son, and hath given all
things into his band.” In John 4:42:—“This is, indeed, the Christ, the
Savior of the world.”

  • JOHN WESLEY HANSON, 1879

#2349

THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM
“The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God’s declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the ‘injury’ (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.”


#2350

I’m a theistic determinist.

My collection of random thoughts on the human will.

There is some repetition for emphasis.

THERE IS NO “CHANCE” THAT WE CAN CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE
Our choices are not made because we had a “chance” to make, or not to make them.

I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God’s decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God’s preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

The kind of fatalism that I reject is the kind that says that things happen no matter what we do.

The truth is that things happen because of what we do, even though what we choose to do is caused by the reasons why we want to choose a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice at any give point in time.

A few seconds before, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
A few seconds later, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
It may even be true that most of the time we would have wanted to choose something else the MOST.
But at that point in time when we actually make a choice, it’s because we want it the MOST, and, at that point in time there is no “chance” that we could have chosen anything else.

As a theistic determinist I believe that nothing happens by “chance” and that God intends to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone, than had it not occurred. That includes the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as kolasis aionion (age during corrective chastisement) that everyone who needs it will experience. Then, when the existence of evil and suffering has served God’s purpose, He will eradicate both of them from our existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL by A.P. Adams is good on this subject!
http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html

As far as salvation is concerned I don’t believe it happens because we are given a “chance.”

As a universalist I believe the Bible teaches that the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be saved first. Then all of the non-elect will be saved later.

The following two links are good on this subject.
REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS
God’s Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
and
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible with Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

The idea that it wouldn’t be “right” for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.
Everything we do is the product of a cause, that cause being the reasons why we prefer one choice the MOST, instead of a different choice.

The fact that you chose it proves that you preferred it at least slightly more than some other choice, or you would not have chosen it.

Your reasons for choosing what you choose are the cause of your making any choice. It is not possible to make a different choice from what your combined reasonings motivate you to prefer the MOST at any point in time.

Nothing God does is “meaningless.” When we look back from the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time, everyone will agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.

It is not even possible to choose any differently (after due deliberation or instantly) than the combined reasonings persuade us to prefer that choice the MOST at that particular moment in time, so much so that we actually do choose it.

In other words, the only “free” will we have is to choose what our combined reasonings persuade us in the choice that we prefer the MOST at that particular point in time. It is not even possible that any other choice could have been made than that one.

It is not even possible to not choose what that reason persuades us is the choice we want to make the MOST at any particular moment in time.

A man devises his ways by using all the info at his disposal.
The end result will be the only “way” he could have devised.
Considering all combined influences in devising that particular way, there simply was no other way that he could have devised at that particular point in time.
We will work out our salvation in response to the combined influences that cause us to work it out in a particular way, the only way that we could possibly work it out. No other way could even be possible.

We are individuals who always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings persuade us is the choice that we prefer the MOST. The fact that we actually choose it proves that we prefer it the MOST.
No other choice is even possible.

The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.
In the case of humans the cause is the combined reasonings why we prefer one choice the MOST instead of a different one.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer MOST.

The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it MOST even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can’t can you? And you won’t be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.

During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose “something” over “something else” are the CAUSES of our choice.

If we insist that our will is so “free” that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose. That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.

In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.

Our not wanting to reap the consequences becomes part of the reasoning process that causes us to choose to change our ways. The “not wanting” becomes so strong that it is no longer possible to choose to reap the consequences.

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, or not, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.

That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.

The idea that it is wrong for God to hold us accountable for choices that we cannot help making is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is what we want to choose the MOST.

Like I said before, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

That is why I call myself a theistic determinist.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone’s suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls “kolasis aionion” which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

Scripturally or otherwise, it has, and always will be true, that we always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings and feelings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The fact that we choose some certain thing instead of something else, proves that we preferred that certain thing the MOST, even though we may try to claim that we really preferred something else the most.

I agree with Albert Einstein, who said, “I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

Albert Einstein, IDEAS AND OPINIONS, pp.8,39; New York: Crown Publishers, 1954

Instead of God being a “gentleman,” I worship a God Who will, sooner or later, successfully influence the will of every fallen creature for their own good, so they will WANT what He wants for them, which does not include sustaining them alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering or annihilating them.

I call myself a theistic determinist because I believe in a God Who has decided that the fate of every fallen creature will be salvation from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

As Martin Zender puts it
“We all have wills, they are just not free.

Then why do we even exist, we might ask? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother letting us think that we’re free?

I think it is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.

It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.

I think the idea is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let’s let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (but not actual) freedom.” (end quote)

I think that negative experiences work into us the motivation to choose differently in the future.

The apostle Paul’s frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don’t prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.

Sometimes Paul’s sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.
Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul’s will “free.”

But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that “the sin that dwelt within him” (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul’s will in his war with his sinful nature.

I found it helpful what Ray Prinzing said.
“Don’t accept condemnation for not being able to “work out” what God has not yet worked into you.”

Without exception, every person comes to the point of actually choosing what the combination of their reasonings and feelings tell them they prefer the MOST. When that choice has been decided upon, it is impossible to avoid making that particular choice at that split second in time.

In other words, when it comes down to actually making a choice, either after due deliberation, or instantly, we will always choose what we have decided that we prefer the MOST.

Here’s the way that James Coram puts it.
"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.”

The commitment of Jesus to do the will of His Father far outweighed His desire to escape the suffering He saw ahead of Him.

He definitely made the choice that He preferred the MOST.

In fact, that is the only choice that any of us can make, i.e. the choice that we prefer the MOST.

Everyone will ALWAYS choose what they both prefer and desire the MOST.

Here’s the way that James Coram puts it.
"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

Albert Einstein put it this way “I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

My own quote.
“After due deliberation we always make the choice that our combined reasonings and feelings (i.e. preferences and desires) convince us is the choice that we prefer and desire the MOST.
The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer and desire it the MOST, or we would have made some other choice instead.”

If we choose “the tough thing” it is ONLY because we prefer that choice.
Our reasonings and feelings combine to influence us to prefer that choice the MOST instead of a choice that is not as “tough.”

I’ll try putting it a different way.
Everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.

What we prefer MOST, and what we determine is the best course of action from the information available are one and the same thing.

I find it completely relaxing to go through life believing that I am controlled by the strings in God’s loving hands!

We do share one thing in common with puppets, and that is causality.

Everything we do is the product of a cause.
And that cause is the combined reasonings and feelings that persuade us to prefer a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice.

It is not even possible to choose what we do not prefer the MOST.

As a UR, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I believe that God’s determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God’s PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.

That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

POST SCRIPT:

Limited free will is an oxymoron - a contradiction in terms.

Limited means constrained.
Free means without constraint.

#90 - WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? – KENNETH BRIX

“That salvation is of man and HIS works is shared by many of us who are Christians. We’ve portrayed God as having done all He could do to save mankind more than 2000 years ago. So now, supposedly, it’s up to mankind to perform the remaining essential of exercising the good work of faith, or else suffer everlasting consequences.

We have looked upon salvation as a joint effort between man and God, and as primarily what WE do for Him. With this teaching MAN is exalted, self righteousness flourishes, and God is stripped of His sovereignty! But our salvation ‘is not of him that willeth’ (any decision we make of ourselves), ‘nor of him that runneth’ (any effort we put forth of ourselves), BUT OF GOD Who showeth mercy! (Romans 9:16)

Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"


#2351

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
“During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23).”

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

If you have been devastated by spiritual abuse this online book is for you.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm


#2352

RESPONSES TO SUPPOSED SCRIPTURE ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION
“Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration, showing that Christian universalism, or ultimate reconciliation is the true Biblical doctrine.”
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html


RESPONSES TO PHILISOPHICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Good news of God’s love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm


#2353

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I’m 80 years old now.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY – G.T. Stevenson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.


#2354

TRANSLATIONS

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Chapter Eleven

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

  1. Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”
    “And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”

  2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
    “And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”

  3. Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
    “And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”
    Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

  4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
    “And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”

  5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
    "And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

  6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
    “And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”
    Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.” It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

  7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
    “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”
    The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”

  8. Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,
    “And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

  9. Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
    “And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”
    It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”

  10. The Concordant Version (1930):
    “And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

  11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
    “And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”

  12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
    “and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”

  13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”

  14. Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

  15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.” The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html
Chapter Eleven


#2355

THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN

Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.

I found this link helpful.

The correct literal translation:

Mk 3: 28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the
sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies,
whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be
blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin- (Concordant Literal
Translation)


#2356

THE EVENTUAL SAVING OF EVERYONE FROM EVERYTHING FROM WHICH THEY NEED TO BE SAVED

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

An excellent website expounding Christian Biblical Universal Salvation


#2357

VESSELS OF DISHONOR

For anyone who may be interested, all of the arguments presented by ETers that universalism is not scriptural have been refuted in detail in this online book.
HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (published 2007)
It can be downloaded free and read online here

I thank God for being able to see that believers in eternal torment will remain believers in eternal torment for as long as God wants them to.

God needs them as vessels of the grossest dishonor, a foil of contrast against which He will demonstrate the power of His love that never fails and His undefeatable grace.

But after the resurrection God will refashion all believers in eternal torment into vessels of honor because they were marred in the Potter’s hands and they never leave His hands.
The doctrine of eternal torment is part of the black background against which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation, using the paint brushes of His love that never fails, and His grace that cannot be defeated.

After believers in eternal torment have done their very best to convince others about what God will not do, God is going to do it anyway.

Believers in eternal torment will probably not want to have anything to do with this link, but others on this forum might.
Why not check it out?
Read the reviews first – just a suggestion.

HOPE BEYOND HELL - GERRY BEAUCHEMIN


HOPE BEYOND HELL BOOK AUDIO - Gerry Beauchemin
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/audio-book-with-text/


#2358

VOMIT

On City Data Christian forum, a poster named twin-spin frequently refers to UR as “vomit.”

twin-spin’s “vomit” versus UR’s “vomit”

twin-spin’s definition of “vomit”
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

UR’s defintion of “vomit”
Sustaining anyone alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering.

A snippet from A TREATISE ON ATONEMENT – HOSEA BALLOU

“We are told of a god who created millions of beings whom he intends for endless torments and puts His whole design into execution; and this is called ‘goodness.’

In millions of cases this god finds it most for his glory to make his rational, hoping, wanting creatures endlessly miserable.

We are likewise told of a devil who acts for his own gratification, and who delights in making God’s creatures miserable; and this is called ‘badness.’

Shall we thus represent our kind and merciful Father from Whom streams of goodness continually flow to His wanting, needing creatures? No; let every vibration of sense within us acknowledge His bountiful hand which will never close.”


#2359

WE DIFFER FROM ETERS

We differ on what we perceive to be of the Holy Spirit.

Interested students will examine the contents of the links I post, and will decide for themselves whether or not they think what it says is of the Holy Spirit.

Everyone will choose to believe whatever they are convinced is the truth about what the Bible teaches. I post on forums to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone actually prefer to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I’m 80 years old now.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate. We also differ about what we perceive to be of the Holy Spirit.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.


#2360

WEBSITES (SOME OF THEM WITH MANY LINKS) THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE CORRECTLY (LITERALLY, NOT INTERPRETIVELY) TRANSLATED TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION, NOT ETERNAL TORMENT, OR EVEN ANNIHILATION

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
http://web.archive.org/web/20110713224225/http://gtft.org/ If the link doesn’t open for you, click on the word “impatient”
http://www.saviourofall.org
http://www.concordant.org/
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://www.sigler.org/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html
http://www.godfire.net/paris/hellnotforever.html
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/wjanse/welcome.htm
http://www.savior-of-all.com/
http://bible-truths.com
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/24.html
http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/
http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/theol.html
http://godfire.net/index.html
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/death.htm
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/index.html
http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/
http://www.godslastcall.org/rev21-22.html
http://www.thenewcreation.com/
http://godfire.net/eby
http://hellbusters.8m.com/eby.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
http://www.sigler.org/kingdom/links.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
http://godskingdomministries.org/free_will.htm
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/The%20Gobbledygook%20Gospel.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Lazarus.html
http://bible-truths.com/part8.htm
http://www.godfire.net/elwin.html
http://www.godfire.net/reasons.html
http://www.godfire.net/FreeWill.html
http://www.godfire.net/eby.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/answers.html
http://www.gospelogic.com/
http://www.promiseed.com
http://sigler.org/kingdom/
http://www.sigler.org/keith/
http://www.godfire.net/paris/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/jgindex.html
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/
http://www.geocities.com/michaelgerardburke/index.html
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hellfactor/indexhf.htm
http://greater-emmanuel.org
http://www.hlom.org/fellowship.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Call_Of_The_Kingdom/
http://www.interiorcoveringsministry.org/
http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/recon-7.htm
http://tgulcm.tripod.com/
http://www.goodnewsinc.net/
http://www.twsj.ws/news.php
http://www.greenwood.net/~cdevans
http://greater-emmanuel.org/insights.html
http://www.geocities.com/tws490/
http://www.ais-gwd.com/~cdevans/
http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/
http://www.haroldlovelace.com/
http://p199.ezboard.com/bjesusthelightoftheworld
http://www.greenwood.net:80/~cdevans/SR.htm
http://www.biblicaluniversalist.bravehost.com/
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.presence.tv/cms/index.php
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id2.html
http://www.sigler.org/eby/savior_of_the_word_series.htm
http://www.haroldlovelace.com/
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/
http://www.notjustnotes.ws/index.htm
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jg/jgindex.html
http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/
http://www.sigler.org/sirius8/rpnavbar.html
http://www.godfire.net/rayknight/
http://martinzender.com/zenderature.htm
http://thegloryrd.com
http://www.urincluded2.com/
http://www.christaslife.org/
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/id2.html
http://www.scaredofhell.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/links.html
http://www.kingdomstudy.com/OtherKingdomLinks.html
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html
http://frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/uniquotes.htm
http://boldgrace.com/
http://biblicaluniversalist.bravehost.com/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/christa.html (scroll down to CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM section)
http://harvestherald.com/thirtyquestions.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
http://www.forgivenforever.org/
http://www.godoftheages.com/
http://not1lost.blogspot.com/2008/09/ages-lasting-correction.html
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.tlchrist.info/universl.htm
http://www.bible-truths.com/
http://www.newbeginningministries.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/
http://frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
http://www.martinzender.com:80/
http://knowingtodaysgod.com/
http://godfire.net/kennedy/
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/index.html
http://thegloryrd.com:80/
http://allmadealive.com/quotes.php
www.GraceEvangel.org
http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/index.html
http://wisefire.tv/
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/universalism-what-is-it-what-isnt-it.html
http://www.martinzender.com/zenderature.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/form.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/links.html
http://newlifeinternational.faithweb.com/OtherKingdomLinks.html
http://scaredofhell.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/links.html
http://www.hetbestenieuws.nl/links.htm
http://home.earthlink.net:80/~btodd2/freewillnote.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/punishment.html
http://crossfaithministry.org/universalism.html
http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity.htm
http://sigler.org/mckay/sovereignty.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/evil.htm
http://www.thomastalbott.com/
http://jesusreligion.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/universalrestitu00ston
http://www.thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence
http://harmony-church.net/Correct.htm
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/other%20docs.htm
http://hopebeyondhell.net/
http://www.christianuniversalist.org/
http://haroldlovelace.com/
http://www.crossandthrone.com/
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/articles2.html
http://www.mercifultruth.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Call_Of_The_Kingdom/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/bsn.htm
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/default.cfm
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/links.htm
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.heavenandhellpage.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/kg/kg.html
http://www.savioroftheworld.net/
http://www.destinedforsalvation.org/
http://www.universalist-herald.net/1BkRev.html
http://www.universalistfriends.org/quf2009.html
http://godfire.net/links.html
http://greater-emmanuel.org/jm/restoration.htm
http://www.studentoftheword.com/StudiesoftheWord.html
http://www.godfire.net/index.html
http://www.einet.net/directory/974143/Universalism.htm
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/book_list.cfm
http://absolute-reconciliation.org/
http://completerestorationinchrist.org/
http://www.gospelrevolution.com/
http://thegloryrd.com/
http://perfectgrace.org/
http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/other%20docs.htm
http://euniversalism.forum5.com/index.php
http://www.biblicaluniversalism.com/posting1.htm
http://www.junkmaster.com/Ministry/cupage1.htm
http://antinomianuniversalism.com/index.php
http://www.biblicaluniversalist.bravehost.com/
http://ukapologetics.net/1inclusivism.htm
http://www.christianheretic.com/hell
http://dir.crossmap.com/Science_and_Social_Science/Theology/Universalism
http://www.christianspiritualism.org/articles/everlastingaionios.htm
http://www.graceevangel.org/
http://godquest.org/links.htm
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
http://godfire.net/paris/
http://www.thomastalbott.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/universalrestitu00ston
http://thetencommandmentsministry.us/ministry/free_bible/whence_eternity
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/
http://www.studentoftheword.com/index.html
http://www.godfire.net/links.html
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.christianuniversalism.info/
http://www.godsplanforall.com/calvinismarminianismanduniversalism
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/FinalUnivBibliography72804.pdf
http://www.restoreallthings.org/
http://www.restoreallthings.org/downloads/BibleThreatsExplnd2.htm
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d020806.htm
https://www.robbell.com/lovewins/
http://fireandrose.blogspot.com/2006/08/why-i-am-universalist-dogmatic-sketch.html
http://perfectgrace.org/
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
http://www.mercifultruth.com/
http://greater-emmanuel.org/kg/kg.html
http://www.christian-universalism.com/
http://healingspiritualterrorism.com/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hell.htm
http://www.urqa.com/
http://www.pilkingtonandsons.com/hellfactor/indexhf.htm
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33973
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/books/creations/index.cfm
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/2005/08/universalism-what-is-it-what-isnt-it.html
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
http://sigler.org/mckay/etpunish.htm
http://www.overcomers.ca/
http://www.biblicaluniversalism.org/
http://www.urqa.com/
http://www.dialoguewith.us/
http://bible-truths.com/part6.htm
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/christian-universalism/
http://www.truth.info/future/universalism.htm
http://www.marcspeed.org/hellisamistranslation.cfm
http://endlesshellended.com/
http://www.urqa.com/
http://www.tlchrist.info/universl.htm
http://lovewins.us/
http://evangelicaluniversalism.org/
http://biblicaluniversalism.org/
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/
http://sigler.org/slagle/
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/topics.htm
http://www.tsdowntown.com/
http://www.christianuniversalism.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rubyybur/ETERNAL_HELL_NO.htm
http://www.godshew.org/index.htm
http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/
http://www.bible-questions-and-answers.com/erasing-hell.html
http://www.truth.info/future/universalism.htm
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Websites.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/Paper.html
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/universalism/SiteLinks.html
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/authors_frames.htm
http://hell-is-a-myth.webs.com/
http://www.thoheslayme.blogspot.ca/
http://www.godsplanforall.com/
http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godislove.php
http://www.kingdomgospel.net/publications/judgment1.html
http://www.thoheslayme.blogspot.ca/
http://www.hell-is-a-myth.webs.com
http://www.biblicaluniversalism.org
http://www.graceevangel.org/
http://www.tsdowntown.com/
http://www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Library.htm
http://ww.concordantbiblesociety.org.uk
http://www.unionlife.org

http://home.earthlink.net/~rubyybur/FOR%20EVER%20in%2065%20verses%20NT%204columns.pdf