The Evangelical Universalist Forum

SNIPPETS FROM MY HARD COPY UR LIBRARY

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1802

RAY PRINZING TAPES

RAY PRINZING IS MY EARTHLY HERO AND MENTOR

GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GOOD WRITINGS

During my twelve year nervous breakdown caused by my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to suffer forever, I would listen to a Ray Prinzing tape while I washed the dishes of my family every day and before going to sleep at night. Through the years that I repeatedly listened to these tapes I became more and more confident that that I was going to recover from my breakdown.

In the opinion of Rodger Tutt of Toronto, Canada, the following are the best of all of Ray Prinzing’s taped sermons.

6 CHRIST OUR MERCY SEAT
8 NO SUBSTITUTE
9 TRUST
16 SEE NO EVIL
29 THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE
30 GOD’S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
32 SUFFICIENT THE EVIL
35 CHANGING THY STRENGTH
36 AS KINGS AND PRIESTS
38 REVELATION TO REVELATION
42 THE TREE OF LIFE
48 KEPT IN PEACE
51 GOD’S RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENTS
55 ALLEGORY OF RACHEL
56 NONE SHALL BE LOST
59 REPENTANCE TOWARDS GOD
61 AND GOD REPENTED
63 THE END OF THE LORD
71 URGED ON BY FAITH
76 MINISTRY OF SALT
89 BLESSINGS REWARDED OR INHERITED
90 NO CONDEMNATION
95 NOT SOMEHOW BUT TRIUMPHANTLY
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
105 THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
111 OF THE SAME LUMP
119 HELD TOGETHER BY LOVE
121 ESTABLISH THE SECOND
122 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART TWO
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
128 ADVANCE IN ADVERSITY
131 ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
133 AFTER THE PRESSURES
134 THE POLISHED SHAFT
135 INTERNAL TRIUMPH
136 RECONCILED INTO HIMSELF
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
142 THE HIDDEN ONES
143 GOD’S GENTLENESS TO MAN
147 BEYOND DISCIPLINE
148 BEHOLDING HIM
149 DELIVERANCE
150 ENTER THY CHAMBERS
151 GOD OF THE VALLEY
152 GOD OF THE MOUNTAINS
153 IN QUIETNESS
154 IN CONFIDENCE
158 RENEWED INTO HIS MIND
160 EAT THE BOOK
161 HOLD FAST TO THE HEAD
162 THE SEVENTH MAN
164 SORROW TURNED INTO JOY
165 MAKE READY A PEOPLE
166 DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS
167 THE BIRTHRIGHT CHALLENGE
168 MY FATHER IS GREATER
169 HIS PARTICIPATING PRESENCE
170 CHANGES, TYRANNY OR BLESSING
171 TILL HE PLEASE
172 IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
173 KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
174 THE SWORD GUARDED WAY
175 THE HEAVENLY VISION
176 DEFEATING THE ACCUSERS
177 NEITHER TOIL NOR SPIN
178 THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
180 HE THAT SHALL ENDURE
181 LIFT UP A STANDARD
183 MUCH MORE
186 WHEN GOD HIDES HIS FACE
187 FAITH VICTORIOUS
188 DIVINE CONFIRMATION
189 WAIT FOR WISDOM’S CHILDREN
190 GOD CHOSE OUR FATHERS
192 LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER
194 EARTHEN VESSEL SINKS
196 A VERY PRESENT HELP
197 A NEW COAT, YEAR BY YEAR
198 COME UP HITHER
199 UNDER HIS SHADOW
200 A HUSHED SECRET
201 EXPECTATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
202 RETURNING INTO GOD
203 PUT A DIFFERENCE
204 FROM EAST TO WEST
206 TIME OF YOUR SOJOURNING
207 HIS HAND IS STRETCHED OUT
208 WHAT SHALL I DO?
209 TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS
210 GIVE DILIGENCE
211 LIVING EPISTLES
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
218 HOLD FAST TILL I COME
219 ACTIVELY RESTING
221 AN INNER REJOICING
222 BLESS ME INDEED
224 NO MORE ECCENTRIC
225 NOT A SPIRIT OF FEAR
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
227 AND SUDDENLY
228 THE HEAVENLY HOST ATTENDS
229 FIT FOR THE KINGDOM
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
231 GOD IS IN CONTROL
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
233 OUR THREEFOLD JUDGEMENT
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
238 FROM POVERTY TO RICHES
239 ABIDING IN GOD
240 PARTS OF HIS WAYS
241 CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST
242 MASTER OF MYSELF
243 ANOINTED EYE SIGHT
244 FAITH THAT OBTAINS
246 THE FURNACE FOR GOLD
247 RAISE UP THE FOUNDATION
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
250 INWARD REVELATION OF THE SON
251 KINGDOM LIFE TRANSFORMING
252 SO GROWS THE KINGDOM
253 AFTER YE HAVE SUFFERED
254 CHOSEN TO KNOW HIS WILL
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
256 OUR THREEFOLD RESURRECTION
257 A THORN FOR THE FLESH
258 THE MINISTRY OF WAITING
259 THERE IS A RIVER
267 HEARING, LEARNING, COMING
268 THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE ME
269 HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED
270 GOLD IN THE MAKING
271 MAKE TO LACK, READY TO FILL
273 ACQUAINTED WITH THE ALMIGHTY
274 EACH IN HIS OWN RANK
278 GOD’S UNFINISHED WORK
280 FULLY PERSUADED
285 CONTINUALLY WITH HIM
286 SURRENDERED TO HIS LORDSHIP
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
296 INIQUITY SHALL HAVE AN END
297 OVERFLOW WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS
298 THINGS BELONGING TO PEACE
301 HIS DESIRE IS TOWARD ME
302 REFINED AS SILVER
303 AND GOD REMEMBERED
304 LOOSE THE PRISONER
305 ASPECTS OF SPIRITUAL LIFE
306 GOD’S INDWELLING CONTROL
307 OUT OF HIM WE CAME
308 GRACE UPON GRACE
309 JUDGEMENT RESTS FOR A LIGHT
310 HIS MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER
312 THE SURE MERCIES OF DAVID
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
316 TOTAL AVAILABILITY
317 VIEWING THE THIRD DAY
326 KINGDOM AUTHORITY

THE BEST OF THE BEST OF THE RAY PRINZING TAPES

GOOGLE UP RAY PRINZING TO READ SOME REALLY GREAT WRITINGS

Ray Prinzing’s very best, and his two extra good tapes.

30 GOD’S WONDERFUL VENGEANCE
101 PASSING THROUGH
104 THE INTERPLAY OF GOOD AND EVIL
109 PLENTEOUS REDEMPTION
123 ESTABLISH THE SECOND, PART THREE
138 AT PEACE WITH YOUR CALLING
215 THE LORD THY REARWARD
216 THE ANGER OF THE LORD
217 GOD APPOINTED HORIZONS
226 FORGET NOT ALL HIS BENEFITS
230 JUDGEMENT UNTO VICTORY
232 THE LORD OUR HELPER
235 GOD COUNTED THE COST (extra good)
236 THY LIFE FOR A PREY
237 THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS
248 SHALL PROSPER IN HIS HAND
255 HEALING THE BREACHES
295 TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS
315 THE DEVIL DESTROYED
339 GOD SO LOVED HE GAVE
352 BUT GOD MUCH MORE
385 FREEDOM OF THE GLORY
387 ESTABLISHED BY GRACE (extra good)

#1803

I was never able to believe what I was taught at Bible school.
Fortunately for me, my wife Helen couldn’t believe it either.

I guess an appropriate question would be, “Why did I bother to go to Bible school”?
I would say that I went to learn how I best could influence people to get them to trust in Jesus for their salvation from everything from which they needed to be saved. I had been taught from childhood that we need to be saved from “eternal torment,” but I was never able to really believe that. In fact just the thought that it might be true caused me continual intense emotional distress.

Since I was not much of a preacher, I concluded after graduating, that I would be most useful in Christian literature distribution which Helen and I did for forty years.

Everyone has an “opinion,” including Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor).

I’m just so glad that I discovered his “opinion” that enabled me to recover from a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I’m 78 now) caused by my inability to love or trust a god who would let anyone suffer forever or annihilate them. During that period of time I had continual panic attacks both night and day.

During my breakdown, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes and before I went to sleep at night, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them twice, and 23 of them several times.

In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH (because someone else had the copyright on GOSPEL ECHOES) and I gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have an earthly hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.
Ray Prinzing is that earthly hero to me.

For several years my 104 year old dad (who is still living) called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.

As I listened to Ray’s tapes I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

Now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that the info I share is helping other people in the same way that it helped me.

All of Ray Prinzing’s writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several pages of Google links about him.

The theme of universal salvation is prominent in all of Ray’s writings, but his book
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is especially good

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but he will not likely be forgotten on this earth for many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!

#1804

RAYMOND VAN DYKE
Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:
“In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20:21-22:

In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:
• No more rule
• No more authority
• No more power
• No more enemies
• No more reigning
• All subjected
• No more death, death destroyed.
• All made alive, immortal

In Revelation 20:21-22, we have:
• Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
• Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
• Authority (21:24,25)
• Power (21:24,25; 22:2
• Kings (21:24-26)
• Saints reign (22:5)
• Second death still exists (21:5)
• The nations still mortal (22:2)
-end quote
Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God’s Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, “for the eons of the eons.” Thus, Christ our Lord “reigns for the eons of the eons,” not as the king’s translators rendered, “forever and ever.” Therefore, Revelation 20:21, 22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons. We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)

lovewins.us/388/an-analytical-study-of-words/

#1805

RECONCILED

BAPTISM

Do you believers in eternal torment believe that the thousands of members of THE SALVATION ARMY and the thousands of members of the many BRETHREN ASSEMBLIES are going to suffer forever? None of them believe in “the great commission” baptism.

PAUL’S GOSPEL FOR TODAY

That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (2Cor. 5:19).

Repentance will occur when God lays hold on the sinner by His saving grace and makes Jesus choice in his heart just like He did for Saul of Tarsus.

SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS DEBARRED

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
concordant.org/expositions/his-a … ng-choice/
“No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God.” (end quote)

When God lays hold on us by His saving grace, any cooperation such as repentance will occur just like it did for Saul of Tarsus.

#1806

Does Scripture Teach Universal Salvation?
YES IT DOES !
richardwaynegarganta.com/Underst … %20One.htm

#1807

RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

And without a parable spake not Jesus unto the multitude Matt 13:34

godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html

#1808

RICHARD CONDON

QUESTIONS WITHOUT ANSWERS
tentmaker.org/books/Question … swers.html

From the introduction
“To those holding a limited view of God’s plan of salvation, they are truly Questions Without Answers, but, to those who rely on God’s Word, the answers become apparent as His truth is revealed to them.”

An important follow-up! - by Richard Condon
A REFUTATION AND A RESPONSE
tentmaker.org/contending.htm

RICHARD CONDON’S UNIVERSAL SALVATION LIBRARY

THE MAIN LIBRARY AND IN THE GARDEN
web.archive.org/web/201107132242 … /gtft.org/

IN THE GARDEN
web.archive.org/web/201107050953 … index.html

VALUABLE LINKS!
Richard Condon’s library of writings by dozens of universal reconciliation writers.
The section called IN THE GARDEN is especially inspirational.
web.archive.org/web/201107132242 … /gtft.org/
web.archive.org/web/201107050953 … index.html
And THE MAIN LIBRARY is huge!
ENJOY!

#1809

THE RECONCILIATION OF SATAN
I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God’s grace in action among the celestials
godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
“The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.

Salvation is for angels also. ‘All things were created by Him, and for Him’ (Col. 1:16).
‘For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He ‘reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).

Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. ‘The deceived and the deceiver are His’ (Job 12:16). (end quote) (Job 12:16).

“God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.” (end quote)
Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.

“Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father’s house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!” (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html

THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
“Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.

‘Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.’ Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love.” (end quote)

AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
“Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued. (end quote)

ERSKINE’S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
“God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?

My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all.” (end quote)

CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.

Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the lustre of the universe.” (end quote)

Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul’s dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.

In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.

As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself.” (end quote)

COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ’s blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other’s promotion.

The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints."

THE WAY TO SALVATION IN THE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL – ERNEST L. MARTIN
“The traditional interpretation of an everlasting hell fire for sinners is as wrong and as senseless as believing that a three dollar bill is legal tender.

Ultimate salvation is something that has been secured by Christ for all mankind without the works of man (either good or bad) being involved in the issue. Everyone will finally be saved and brought to a full knowledge of the truth of God. All humans will finally be forgiven for their sins and they will become reconciled to God. All things in the heavens, on earth and under the earth (the angels who are kept in chains in the bowels of the earth) will one day proclaim the Lordship of Christ to the glory of God the Father.

But it will not only be all humans who are reconciled to God (now that God has reconciled Himself to mankind). The reconciliation will reach out to embrace all the hostile powers which have been out of harmony with God over the centuries. There is prophesied, according to Paul, a full reconciliation between all the antagonistic beings throughout the universe. Even they will be reconciled amongst themselves,
Between themselves and mankind, and between themselves and God the Father (Col. 1:20). All grievances, both divine and human, are disposed of through the life and death of Christ our Saviour. Peace has been, or will be established between all hostile parties throughout the universe.

TWO STUDIES ON HEAVEN AND HELL – A.E. KNOCH
“Love is the great thing. God loves me. Christ died for me to display God’s affection. It has filled my heart to overflowing. I have tried to share it with my fellows, but O, so feebly and faithlessly. Yet I have known no joy so pure and permanent, no bliss so ecstatic as comes to me when some straying sinner or seeking saint enjoys God’s love through some word of mine. What will it be to be perfectly equipped with inexhaustible supplies of power and grace and fare forth into the celestial realms as an ambassador of peace to proclaim the evangel of God’s limitless love to the celestials of the starry spheres? This — this will be happiness — and heaven.

Not only does Paul see the entire earth blessed and saved, but all reconciled whom God created – even the principalities and powers of the heavens (Col. 1:20). So great is the power of the cross!”

A POEM BY A.G. CAMPBELL
I deem they greatly err, who hold
That He Who made the human soul,
Will not its destinies control
For final good – but, wrathful, fold
It in the shrouds of hopeless woe,
Of deathless gloom, of quenchless fire,
The creatures of His vengeful ire,
Whence it can never ransom know.

So, in the world to come, His love
Shall freely unto all abound;
Even prisoners in the depths profound
Shall see His kind face beam above
Their dreary cells, and hear His voice,
Unheeded once, in mercy call, –
“Turn, turn to Me and live!” and all
Shall hear the summons and rejoice.

Lost men, lost angels, shall return, –
Satan himself be purified;
Death shall be conquered in his pride,
And hell’s fierce fires shall cease to burn.
Then shall our God be All in all –
His love bear universal sway;
His love preserves all souls for aye,
Nor shall the weakest fear a fall.

#1810

SAUL OF TARSUS – ACTS 9:1-9

“Free willers” argue that Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus because He knew that Saul would accept Him.
Fact is, ANYONE would accept him under Saul’s predicament.
A light from heaven blinds him and he falls to the earth and hears a voice saying, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.”
It is absurd to think that anyone would reply to Jesus, “Screw you Jesus Christ. I’m going to keep slaughtering your followers just like I did before.”

Few of us have a conversion experience as dramatic as Saul’s but it was just as surely a product of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and CAUSING Jesus to be choice in our heart. It is impossible to give ALL the glory to God and avoid self-righteousness when we claim that it was not God Who CAUSED our new mental preference.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
“No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God.”

#1811

THE SECOND DEATH

THE JUST JUDGMENT OF GOD – JAMES CORAM

“The main point which we seek to impress upon our readers is to accept God’s declaration that, for those who are judged before the great white throne, the lake of fire is the second death, not a second lifetime.

While the ‘injury’ (literal translation) sustained by those who are cast into the lake if fire (in Revelation 20:14,15) will be fatal (since to these the lake of fire is the second death), it will not be permanent. We may be certain that this is the case, for, at the consummation, death will be abolished and all will be vivified, that God may be All in all. God is the Saviour of all mankind, and this includes all who enter the second death.”

#1812

SEQUENTIAL LOGIC
Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.
It is true that there are things that God cannot do.
For example, God cannot lie. But He doesn’t want to lie.
But He DOES want to save ALL mankind.

SEQUENTIAL LOGIC - Kenneth Larsen

Can God do anything He wishes? Yes. “All that Yahweh delights He does,
In the heavens and on earth, In the seas and every abyss” Ps. 135:6.
See Matt. 19:25, 26.

Does God wish all to be saved? Yes. “Who will have all men to be saved
and to come to the knowledge of the truth” 1 Tim. 2:4. See Acts 4:12.

Therefore, it is apparent that God is able to save what was lost, and
since He desires to save all that was lost, He has promised to do just
that. Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20; 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

Faith in God’s promises,

And an acquaintance with His character and power,
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God’s Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
godfire.net/eby/godislove.html

and sequential logic,

and THE HISTORY OF THE EARLY CHURCH
Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

all support universal reconciliation.

Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it.

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

#1813

should and may – James Coram

As to the word “should” in Phil 2:10,11 and the “may” of 1Cor. 15:28, it is not the should or may of doubt but is a dependent clause based upon the grammar of the subjunctive.
For instance, a clear example of the subjunctive of “may” and “should” is when I state, “I have a pen in my hand. I will loosen my grip on the pen so that it may or should be falling.” The falling of the pen is dependent on my loosing it. It definitely will fall should I loosen my grip on it. There is no doubt in the “may” or “should.”

Now, looking at the passage; “Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with a Name that is above every name, that in the Name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father.” Phil. 2:9-11.
Every knee bowing and every tongue acclaiming is dependent upon

  1. Christ going to the cross (verse 8), and
  2. God gracing Him with a Name above every name.
    Since these have taken place, all WILL bow the knee, and their tongue WILL acclaim Jesus as their Lord.
#1814

SINS JUSTIFICATION – DONALD G. HAYTER
“Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency.
God is justified in all He does, for His final intention to glorify Himself and bless all of His creatures is the dominating purpose which adds luster to all His eonian operations.
In the brilliant glory of His ultimate, the most somber and gloomy features of earth’s history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power, wisdom, and love.

During the final eons, every creature in the heavens, and on earth, and under the earth, will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father’s love revealed in them. And every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Very feebly we can enter into the joy, the satisfaction, the thankfulness that will be His as He views the vast potentials of love and adoration that will be pulsing within the heart of everyone.

Thus will all ultimately be justified. God’s matchless wisdom, serving in the cause of His love, has produced a method of salvation that calls forth the adoring wonder of our hearts. What a God we have!”

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL – GUY MARKS
“Evil begins with God and is a necessary part of His plan. It is the method He uses to accomplish His purpose. Usually when man works evil he sins because His motives are wrong, but this is not true of God for His motive is always to produce good. God uses the forces of evil to bring about good.

The teaching that sin and death are eternal is a travesty of God’s character, for it presents God standing by in complacency while Satan introduces an evil that all but destroys the human race.

The purpose of evil is to establish a background for a display of God’s love and grace which we could never know apart from the experience of sin. Evil is a necessary part of God’s purpose to mold us and to fashion us in the image of His beloved Son. Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God’s purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealings with evil and sin. The forces of evil cannot continue beyond the circumference of God’s purpose in it. God always has control over the forces of evil and evil never has any power apart from the authority of God. God has complete control over Satan and all of his activities.

The teaching that sin is to continue eternally blinds our minds to an understanding of the purpose of evil. Those who have made the greatest progress in seeking out the revelation of the cross no longer consider evil to be a problem, for the cross of Christ will turn all the evil of sin into infinite good. God will do infinitely more than repudiate sin and abolish death. He will not simply restore the human race to the status of Adam in the garden.

God’s grace differs from Adam’s offence because it will accomplish far more than Adam lost. Then too that which resulted from Adam’s offense is temporary but the results of grace will be permanent. Grace more than meets the need for it exceeds the need by far. It is enough and to spare for it is a superabundance. And this proves conclusively that the ruin caused by Adam’s sin is overcome and more by the superabundance of grace.

Before the eons, before there was any evil, before there was any sin, God designated all the events that would make sure that not one would be trapped in the forces of evil, but that all would be delivered from death and sin. God prearranged it all, from the fall of man to the glory of the consummation. Not one thing was left to chance. All was founded on His wisdom.

To some evil will never cease, or so they believe. God is never able, or at least He never tries to bring about so much good that all evil will vanish. They try to justify God with the false teaching that man is a free moral agent. But the only freedom of man that the scriptures present is the freedom that comes through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus.”

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE – JOSEPH E. KIRK
The introduction reads “Mistranslation of the Greek word ‘aion’ is a master stroke of diabolical genius. Perhaps no other word erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. Because the understanding of the eons and God’s purpose in them has been lost, the church is divided on important issues like judgment, and man’s destiny. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after spiritual truth will be aided in their quest.”

Here is a snippet from the writing itself. “During this present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), sin reigns, Satan who is said to be ‘the god of this eon’ (2Cor. 4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1Cor. 15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and in supreme control. He is the eonian God.
In due time, He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom. 8:18-23).”

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

#1815

SOONER OR LATER
WORDS TO INSPIRE THE SOUL
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
A will in bondage to an enslaved mind is only “free” to choose what they prefer which is summed up in Romans 3:10-18. Until God intervenes and causes Jesus to be choice in their heart like He did for Saul of Tarsus, the sinner will always choose their own way rather than God’s way unless they happen to coincide.

Gerry Beauchemin wrote
”Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one’s will to change.

Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.

It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a ‘free’ will, but an ‘enslaved’ will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind.”
GERRY BEAUCHEMIN

Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

In the conclusion of THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL, Martin Luther wrote
“There can be no “Free-will”—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!”
truecovenanter.com/trueluthe … .html#conc

“God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ’s cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men’s offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come.”
Martin Zender

#1816

Man’s [Free] Will vs. God’s Will
Stuart Pouliot

"Man is helpless in his sin, so why do we make man a hero in his own salvation, as if he can save himself by exercising his so-called free will ? God the Creator alone is responsible for His creation, and He has taken on the full responsibility to save all mankind through His Son. We need to be continually reminded that it is God’s will that is being worked out in the ages, not man’s will, and that God will accomplish all that He wills through His Son. In Christ all will be made alive! All things come forth through God.

There is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6 NASB)

We need to stop holding to a small, impotent god created in our own image and embrace the God of All who will be All in all new. Further, we need to stop boasting in ourselves or encouraging others to boast in themselves when it comes to our so-called salvation. Perhaps, just perhaps, if we moved off of this ground, we would begin to praise God for His glorious plan to save all mankind, eventually . Just imagine the power of the gospel that would go forth based on the pure love of God and not on some fear of a fictitious pagan place called hell."
kingdomandglory.com/art/art56.html

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

#1817

CONSEQUENSES OF TEACHING THE DOCTRINE OF “ETERNAL HELL”
tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

Many people are unable to love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into a state of inescapable everlasting suffering.

The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … larity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that deal with the many aspects of this same subject.
tentmaker.org/articles/savio … /index.htm

Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
“Forever and Ever”–A Poor Translation
tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html
The smoke of their torment rises for a limited period of time. Here is the proof.
tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html

#1818

TESTIMONY – RODGER TUTT

I would like to tell you about both the negative and positive sides of my testimony in case it might be a help to other members, or surfers, or lurkers, of this forum who have, or are experiencing what I went through for similar reasons.

I’m 78 years old, and had I known that evidence existed that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love an endless-hell god.

THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn’t believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.

If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.

I think that probably most of the agnosticism in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers (eternal tomentors) claim to love and worship.

Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.

This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.

When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don’t open your heart’s door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”

So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.

Awhile later she said it’s obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.

At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.

My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting “In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name,” until on one occasion the welts on my legs bled. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.

Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behaviour. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad’s second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.

So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.

Later, at the age of 28 (I’m 78 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr … ained.html

THE POSITIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

Now I’m a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.

Before you brush off my assertion by saying “there is no such a thing,” think about the following.

MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His many writings can be Googled up and read online.
Just type in Ray Prinzing.

During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes and before I went to sleep I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them once, and 23 of them several times.
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.

Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.

For several years my 104 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.

As I listened to Ray’s tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I’m 78 years old now)

My panic attacks completely stopped.

And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!

J. Preston Eby was a good friend of Ray Prinzing. They frequently quoted each other in their writings. Read what J. Preston Eby wrote about this subject. Copy and paste into Google
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER? or click on
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved
godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

The entire series of sixteen chapters by J. Preston Eby on this subject can be accessed at
Savior of the World Series
godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

His writing specifically on universal transformation is at
The Restitution of All Things
godfire.net/eby/restitution.html
SEE ESPECIALLY THE VERY LAST PARAGRAPH IN THAT ARTICLE

Like I said before, if I truly believed the Bible teaches eternal hell, I probably would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that. I would live my life trying to treat other people the way I would like to be treated by them and hope for the best after I die.

I think the doctrine of endless hell is probably the primary reason why many decent people choose agnosticism or atheism rather than Christianity. Like President Abraham Lincoln said to the eternal-hell evangelist, “Your god is my devil.”

A TRIBUTE TO SEVERAL OF MY SPECIAL FRIENDS

Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor), and Ray’s friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.

IMO people like Ray and Preston and George know the real Jesus.
KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
godfire.net/eby/godislove.html

Here’s another testimony (by Charles Slagle) that was a huge help to me because the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown were the same as mine.
Copy and paste the links into your browser.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
richardwaynegarganta.com/4Vi … vation.htm
or
sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

The second link is his own personal website.
I am very happy to report that mostly due to the influence of the audio tapes and writings of Ray Prinzing, both of my parents changed their thinking later in life.

The theme of universal salvation is prominent in all of Ray’s writings, but his book
REDEMPTION ALL IN ALL is especially good

#1819

Thank you, Rodger. Very encouraging.

#1820

My pleasure Dave :slight_smile:

THE BLACKEST OF ALL BACKGROUNDS
As some of you know, I, Rodger Tutt, had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78, I’m 78 now) over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever.

By listening to many audio tapes by Ray Prinzing (my earthly hero and mentor) over that period of time, I was able to gradually recover. All of Ray Prinzing’s writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google. There are several Google pages of links about him.

Millions of Muslims believe that non Muslims are going to suffer forever in hell.
Quote from
Islamic Beliefs about the Afterlife
“Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell, but non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished eternally.”

And, as most people already know, millions of Christians believe that non-Christians are going to suffer forever in hell.

The way that I emotionally cope with (i.e. stop myself from going crazy again) because of the existence of ETers (i.e. believers in eternal torment), is to perceive ETers as God’s vessels of grossest dishonour – a necessary foil of contrast in the guise of truth – a part of the blackest of backgrounds, upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece of universal transformation using the paint brushes of His undefeatable grace and His love that never fails.

The marred vessels (i.e. ETers), never leave the Potter’s hands, (they are marred in the Potter’s hands), and neither will anyone leave the Potters hands. After our resurrection from the dead, all ETers will be refashioned, and transformed into vessels of honour, and it will be plain for all to see that it was better that ETers were vessels of dishonour for a long as they were (Jeremiah chapter 18).

One of the dishonourable characteristics of ETers is that they have no desire whatsoever to check out the reasons why URs (i.e. universal reconciliationists) believe that a literally translated, (not interpretively) translated Bible, actually teaches universal salvation.

But it may be that a silent member, or surfer, or lurker on this forum might be motivated enough to check us out and decide if the conclusions of URs have any merit.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

No doubt, many ETers will say that they have examined the evidence of the URs and have rejected it as being false. That, of course is to be expected of those for whom God has chosen to temporarily be a marred vessel. At least, that is the way I see it.

#1821

THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL

In the conclusion of his book THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL Martin Luther wrote
there can be no “Free-will”—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!
truecovenanter.com/trueluthe … r_bow.html

Here is a helpful article on the subject.
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html